I don't want to re-open the barbed v barbless debate as I am not sure this is the problem ...

Using Animal barbless witha boilie tied to the standard knotless not hair rig, I was distinctly unhappy to see that 4 of the 6 Carp I landed had suffered a gash or "double hooking". From what I could tell, the wide gape had allowed the barbless animal (size 8) to turn in the Carp lip, effectively pushing the hook into the original hole where the hookpoint first penetrated. This meant that the entire hook was buried in the Carps lip / mouth and for some reason this caused tears (presumably due to the pressure exerted)

I consider myself a competent angler - in each case the Carp was landed relatively quickly (without exerting undue pressure), and I kept in touch with the fish at all times, so allowing slack line was not the cause.

Any ideas as to what caused this to happen - I don't want to cause harm to the fish in future so intent to use a different make / style of hook, with a smaller gape .... assuming that is the problem.

Any advice welcome

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Must have been very distressing, Jon! First question is: how sure are you that the tears were caused when you caught the fish, rather than being pre-existing mouth injuries? I have caught a number of carp with old injuries (in different parts of the mouth to where my own hook has been: these I put down to the common practice I see, of carp being held half out of the water, on a very tight line, by inexpert anglers who scoop at them with the net. If the injuries are from your hooks, then it does suggest that the hook design is at fault. I use barbless hooks (I agree, let's not start that all over again)of a make recommended to me: 'ESP Raptor', which have a fairly wide gape and a short shank. When hair-rigging I use a short hair, to try and ensure that the hooking is on the inside of the mouth. I very rarely see the point of the hook when a fish is landed.

dont like those hooks at all ,doesnt matter what size is on the packet they are realy 2 sizes larger ,never had any probs with starpoints and they dont exist anymore

Pangolin, thanks - I am fairly certain it was my hooking that caused the problem due to the hook being at the bottom of the tear in all cases.

My cousin used ESP raptors for a while but had trouble with them opening out, so I won't go for them

Any other recommendations from anyone, else it is back to drennan's for me

Carry sidecutters and snip the hook to bits, then tie on another one. Better than poking and prodding and causing damage.
What's all this about hook damage caused by others? Haven't seen that for a long time now...

i use animal hooks and never had that problem at all been using them for bout a year now. so im not sure its the hook at fault

I dont think animal hooks are very strong in my opinion i was using them at boddingtons and nearly every fish bent the hook nearly straight!
I think drennan super specialist are far better.

"I dont think animal hooks are very strong in my opinion i was using them at boddingtons and nearly every fish bent the hook nearly straight!
I think drennan super specialist are far better."

I've had exactly the same experience with Animal hooks, and have never used them since, think it's the B981's I use now, not had any problems landing big carp on those...

I have to say that I'm concerned by the claims that specimen hooks have been pulled nearly straight: it isn't the fish that applies the pressure, it's the angler. I'd say that if you are pulling so hard on a fish that you straighten the hook, you're showing rather less concern for fish welfare than Jon Hedges, who started the thread. I've just been reading the claims about the 'Pegasus unbreakable rods/poles' in the comic, where they proudly show a large carp that was foulhooked during the test and which was still landed in a very short time. The claim is that you can apply the sort of pressure with these rods that 'would cause ordinary rods to explode'. Where's the skill in doing that? Plenty of large fish have been caught on small hooks and light lines by anglers who are clever and skillful in playing fish. I don't mean to knock any of you guys but... unless you're fishing a match, is it all about hauling them out quickly?

[ 05. August 2004, 08:25 AM: Message edited by: Pangolin ]

i use these hooks reguarly,only ever had one that moved during the fight and tore part of the carps lip(this was a barbed hook)but in this case i was trying to land a mid-double that thought its was supercarp.i have also landed good barbel and chub on thses hooks,with no problems.the carp incident may be solved by steopping up a hook size(i was using 10's)so the hook gets a better hold.