Mouth damage

[Eddie]

Billy the Fish:

Personally speaking, i blame the new strain of fish that are present in so many carp ponds these days. They are bred to grow quickly, but still arent physically formed and toughened up, a thing that only age can bring. On young fish, the moths tend to be much softer and this would encourage hook pulls and subsequently mouth damage.

Wondered how long it would take for somebody to use societies answer to everything, blame the victim!

[Billy the Fish]

Eddie:

 

Eddie:

Personally speaking, i blame the new strain of fish that are present in so many carp ponds these days. They are bred to grow quickly, but still arent physically formed and toughened up, a thing that only age can bring. On young fish, the moths tend to be much softer and this would encourage hook pulls and subsequently mouth damage.

Wondered how long it would take for somebody to use societies answer to everything, blame the victim!

Now thats not a terribly fair comment Eddie, i am just pointing out things that i have seen, just odd how a size 12 hook catches decent sized (and old) bream all day and then rips the mouth of a carp.

[poledark]

Billy, could be something to do with the fact that carp fight harder than bream????

Den

[jeepster]

a size 12 hook would also catch decent size carrier bags half full of water all day, oh sorry thats a bream isnt it

[craig2309]

i associate mouth damage with fish that are caught countless times in a season unless people are hauling them in of course.fish that are caught only a couple of times a season have the time for their hook wounds to heal.and as for heavy leads causing mouth damage, i used 4oz leads all last season and dont remember seeing mouth damage on any of the fish that i caught, maybe its the way people play fish, maybe its the nature of the lake as fish in silty lakes tend to have softer mouths

[malevans]

Barbed hooks are not allowed on the fishery I am a member of. I can't remember the last carp I actually needed to unhook. The hooks seem to fall out on route from water to the mat. That is also what I am observing with around 50% of my bait caught pike now as well. I can see the risk of leads snagging in the landing net as described in the orginal post when using a large mesh for river carping. You could barely get a AAA through my carp mesh.

[Dick Dastardly]

Mouth damage in the landing net?no.Use of powerfull rods to skull drag fish in?Probabley.

[WickerDave]

WickerDave:

On a related note (but lighter tackle perspective) from the "Avon rods" thread on the Coarse Forum, do Avon rods cause more mouth damage than stiffer rods ?

 

There have been several instances in the last few years where I have caused mouth damage to carp, which concerned me, but I never plucked up the courage to post a question on this.

 

The background for the post on this topic I never posted was...

 

"I play the fish with a loosely set drag for the strike and initial run, and then tighten the drag a little and use the drag or backwind for the remainder of the fight. I don't think I try to bully the fish and always give line where possible, unless the proximity of snags prevent it.

 

Tackle is a 1.25 T/C Avon rod with 6lb or 8lb thin diameter mono. Hook sizes are normal 8s or 10s and carp 6s, always barbless. Bait is just on the hook, not hair-rigged. Methods vary from mid range method feeder and surface fishing to close range float fishing. Venues are smallish commercial stillwaters. Target fish are any species or size that will take a non-boilie bait, with some carp in the low doubles and plenty of 6lb+ fish."

 

So is some mouth damage inevitable, or am I doing something wrong?

Didn't get any response to this, so I will try again.

 

Is there any single factor that is most likely to cause mouth damage to a fish, or is it a combination of lots of things?

 

- playing technique (bullying/overplaying)

- hook size, type (eyed/spade, barbed/barbless), pattern (normal/long shank), metal thickness (normal/carp strength)

- bait presentation, hair rigged or not

- hook link line type (mono/braid), thickness

- weight of lead

- rod test curve, action

- size of fish

- speed of fish

 

Since I have seen posts in the past where the posters have claimed that they have never damaged fish, what am I doing wrong to cause mouth damage?

[Peter Sharpe]

It depends what you mean by mouth damage and whereabouts on the mouth it is caused. If a carp is hooked clean through the film of skin on the protruding part of the mouth, then a tear of some description is almost inevitable, no matter what kind of hook you are using. Very large hooks will make this worse, but so could extra strong size 10s, used with a strong rod and 15 lb bs line.

 

If you are actually breaking the cartilage of the rim of the mouth you are using excessive force with over strength tackle. This kind of damage used to be common years ago on all species, especially roach, and I had always assumed it was caused by matchmen ripping the hooks out.

 

If you are talking about very small tears of no more than a few millimetres, in the fleshy areas about three or four centimetres inside the mouth, then this is also bound to happen whatever type of hook you use. Small wounds of this type will cause no lasting damage and must occur naturally.

 

I used to fish for small carp years ago, with maggots hooked straight onto barbed size 8s, using a 1.25 lb tc rod and 5 lb line. Small tears in the mouth were common using this setup, although a great many of the carp caught already had badly deformed mouths. Barbless hooks were unheard of a that time.

 

In my opinion, the real damage with barbed hooks is caused by the hook being firmly embedded in the tough cartilage and sinews around the edges or "scissors" of the mouth (I don't think jaws is the appropriate term). Barbed hooks can work their way right in here and be almost impossible to remove without using stomach churning force. Barbless hooks can also work their way in, but are usually easy to remove.

 

One thing is certain: I used to see far more badly damaged carp in the days before barbless hooks were available than I see now. Perhaps people are far more careful and caring now - perhaps not.

[poledark]

Perhaps a word re Barbel unhooking here will help to throw some light on this issue....

Barbel anglers are advised to carry FORCEPS, yes, FORCEPS to "aid unhooking"

 

Now if you need to use forceps then you are using the wrong hooks.

 

Same for carp, they have tough lips and barbed hooks have to be worked free by twisting and pushing backwards. That is a simple fact.

 

Barbless nearly always fall out on their own.

 

I would like to see the "report" regarding the testing of different types of hook.

That said, I do use barbed hooks for my carping, I am relying on the fish hooking itself and not getting off before I can pick the rod up.

 

For pretty well all other forms of fishing I would be happy to use barbless, and would ALWAYS use them for barbel, having struggled to remove barbed hooks from quite a few.

 

Den