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wild carp


Guest zorba

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How big do wild carp grow? I've just been told by a member of our club that the record carp of around 26lb is a wild carp. I know that most of the carp in the lake are wild carp but i got the impression that wild carp only went too about 12-13lb. Maybe I'm mistaken but a 26lb wild carp is like saying that someone could catch a 10lb roach.

Does anybody know?

 

Thanks

 

Zorba

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zorba - hopefully someone will correct me if I am wrong but I am under the impression that your "wild carp" are not a seperate species like grass carp or crucian carp but are simply common carp that haven't been messed with for a number of years.

 

If that is the case, they should be able to go to whatever size a common could - excepting some of the new lines that are being bred for size and rapid growth.

 

If that is the case, our US carp are a German strain introduced over here somewhere in the early 1800s, distributed widely, and then pretty much left alone. 60s are being taken now in certain parts of the US and larger ones are undoubtly in the water.

 

Taken from a short piece on Here

 

Noone knows for certain exactly WHEN carp first arrived in the USA. Sometime in the early 1800s they showed in the NYC and Boston area , including one local water I fish , Brookline res. in 1840. Sproadic attempts to establish were not widely publisized until 1860 when an early writer refered to carp that had already established themselves in the Hudson r. NY as "Scaley foreigners...". However , noted for their incredible ability to convert water to meat and their durability in transport , plus their ability to rapidly populate , their popularity grew in the 1870s. They were dubbed the "miracle fish" due to these atributes by a self promoting farmer , Julius Poppe after he imported just 5 fingerlings from Germany. 2 years later he distributed to other farmers eager to obtain these fish that could support families and bring in income with little effort. Hard to argue with Poppes claim! The US Government Stepped in not surprisingly soon after to distribute and culture these Miricle fish in 1877 via the US Fish Commission , and America was in love with these great fish. Within just 5 years , some 250000 fish per year were being distributed throughout the states by speacial railroads from DC and Maryland where they were being weened by the Government. By 1897 , after shipping some 2.4 million carp to every state and even Canada and Mexico , Saturation had been achieved prompting the USFC to close its carp shop. At this time fish farms were raving about the old "Miracle Fish" and the commercial carp fishery steadily grew....
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Guest peter mccue

Zorba, If we are talking about genuine British wildies of the 7-800yr pedigree then I think you won't be too far from the truth, though I think they may get a little larger than your estimate.

 

The real problem, is unfortunately what the hell is a genuine wildie? It's pretty well accepted that our wildie is actually a feral form of domesticated Carp & nobody can be sure that these have'nt been contaminated with king Carp genes over the years.

 

What that boils down to, is that these huge wildies people talk about may well have more than a little of the king Carp about them, which greatly affects their ultimate size.

 

It just could be that the original 'wildie' no longer exists.

 

It's a fascinating subject Zorba & if you want to know more about 'wildies' get hold of a copy of a 'history of Carp fishing' by Kevin Clifford, it's good reading.

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Guest peter mccue

Newt,

The term 'common' over here usually refers to the fully scaled king Carp, which is a very different beast growth wise to the wildie.

 

Whilst the common record approaches 60lb in the uk, you have to wonder whether a genuine wildie has ever managed a third of that!

 

Although it looks likely that the original Carp brought to England had already been tampered with, the growth rates would appear to be close to that of the true wild Carp. The huge Carp, the king variety, that we all love did'nt get developed till much later.

 

That the true wild Carp & the king Carp are now very different fish in terms of shape & the ultimate weight they can achieve, is indicated by the fact that the wild Carp has no pronounced shoulders, there being a smooth transition from the head to the back, quite different from commons & mirrors & of course it's long & lean physique as opposed to the heavily built king.

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If you're lucky enough to find some then I'd say that a double figure wildie is a fish of which you should be extremely proud. I've been lucky enough to fish 2 waters that had 'genuine' wildies and never saw a fish above 8lb with the average being 3 to 6 (although a 12 was rumoured). They seem to be a fish that grows in large numbers rather than large weight, which seems to be somewhat at odds with the king carp where with a few exceptions there definitely seems to be a tendancy towards fewer but larger fish, even when not subject to the management of man. This of course was probably one of the things that made them an attractive farm fish as it's better from a farming point of view to have 10 4lb fish rather than 1 40lb fish.

 

Unfortunately both my waters are no more, a combination of Council incompetance and a change of owner. Whether I'll ever get to fish for a proper wildie ever again is in my mind somewhat doubtfull frown.gif

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Peter M - as I understand it, all UK carp were imported and you had/have no true native ones.

 

Ours were as well - just much later than yours. German I think but have now been here untouched (as in - not bred for size/rapid growth/etc.) for several hundred years.

 

Since we are speaking of the same species, Cyprinus carpio, I am assuming that your "wild carp" are simply ones you think haven't been cross-bred with newer varieties.

 

Ours haven't either - no opportunity. biggrin.gifSo, do they class as wild carp or not as you folks define wild carp? I am really trying for clarification and not any sort of wind up. This topic pops up from time to time and I have never been really clear on an answer.

 

The shape you refer to is typical of river carp over here though and some of them get quite large. For instance, a drawing of a Brit "wild carp" followed by a picture of a St. Lawrence River carp that looks very similar followed by another US carp that has a slight bit of a hump behind the head but not much and a bit of a gut but nothing like the large UK Lumps I've seen.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Wildie

wild-carp.jpg

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

St. Lawrence Tiddler

carp.jpg

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

St. Lawrence Bigger

 

Shape looks wildie to me but the size certainly isn't what you describe.

 

and an array here

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Guest peter mccue

Quite right newt, there is no such thing as a native Carp in the U.K., excepting the Crucian of which there's doubt anyway, the original Brit Carp known as a 'wildie' was an import & now believed to have already been a domesticated Carp when it arrived.

 

The true wild Carp which as far as I know & read still exists in the tributaries of the black sea, although in much reduced numbers, is under threat from the contact with domesticated Carp.

 

This true wild Carp is the Carp all our fish are descended from & differs widely from the Carp in the U.S. & the U.K.

 

As I mentioned, the true wild Carp totally untouched by man is a very slim fish with no sign of any notch behind the head, the carp you've shown in your post Newt are quite clearly commons ie king Carp. Trouble is when people show drawings or pictures of what they think is a wild Carp, what they are actually doing is showing images of the early domestic Carp gone wild. Even in situations where Commons are very undernourished that shoulder notch still shows.

 

Because your Carp are descended from the German king variety, they cannot be classed as 'wildies' in the British sense as our Carp arrived 500yrs before yours, & came from a strain far closer to the true wild Carp.

 

Theoretically, logic dictates that U.S. Carp should eventually revert to type if left to their own devices, though I'm aware that there's no sign of that happening.

 

The worse thing is that the 'wildie' in the U.K. is getting so rare you wonder how long it can last, & of course proving it's pedigree must be almost impossible now with the kings being so widespread.

 

Don't know whether that cleared things up or whether I just rambled on Newt, but either way it's a fascinating subject.

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Guest chesters1

i have always thought of wild carp as the fully scaled but " lean and mean " with a hook/barb on their top fin ,have never caught one over 8lb ish

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Thanks Peter. I am now less confused than I was before.

 

Do you happen to know if anyone has done any genetic testing of wild carp? The thought occurs that they may be different in some way and were just mis-labeled as the same species as king carp. The destinctive physical

 

Zorba - you are probably much less confused than most carp anglers on this topic.

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