wild carp

[Guest Nightwing]

Odd thing is, there is no aparent sign of U.S. carp getting any smaller. Indeed, our commons are likely larger than any place else!

Why that is is anyones guess, but it also is odd that the very largest fish tend to exist in the cooler northern regions. Lastly, I have often seen referenced that carp are often not successful at breeding in some waters of the U.K. due to adverse weather conditions(read: too cold). That being the case, any ideas as to why they are so successfull here in, for example, Michigan, which is distinctly colder even then Scottland?

[Guest Steve Burke]

Originally posted by Nightwing:

Odd thing is, there is no aparent sign of U.S. carp getting any smaller. Indeed, our commons are likely larger than any place else!

Why that is is anyones guess, but it also is odd that the very largest fish tend to exist in the cooler northern regions. Lastly, I have often seen referenced that carp are often not successful at breeding in some waters of the U.K. due to adverse weather conditions(read: too cold). That being the case, any ideas as to why they are so successfull here in, for example, Michigan, which is distinctly colder even then Scottland?

 

Could it be that our water temperatures in summer are lower? But then I've read that UK carp feed best at 58 to 68F.

 

Or because our carp have competition from other coarse (rough) fish species, but fewer predators than in the US?

 

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Wingham Fisheries

http://www.anglersnet.co.uk/fisheries/wingham.htm

 

[This message has been edited by Steve Burke (edited 31 January 2002).]

[Guest peter mccue]

Newt,

I haven't read anything about anybody doing genetic testing on wild Carp, but it was suggested by a wild Carp expert in Czechoslovakia, a professor Eugene Balon in 1991! interesting to find out if anything came of it.

 

Incidentally, the same guy travelled to the U.S. to investigate claims of wild Carp & identified them all as feral forms.

 

I don't think there's much doubt that wildies & kings are the same fish, it's just that the wild Carp has been so intensively bred for so long, it was being farmed on a large scale in Europe for at least 700yrs before it got to Britain, that it now looks like a different species!

 

In Kevin Cliffords 'a history of Carp fishing' he states that the domesticating of Carp started with the Romans around the 2nd to 4th century B.C. certainly enough time to breed almost beyond recognition to the original form.

 

Nightwing,

Successful spawnings do take place in the U.K. but in a lot of cases the survival rate can be horrendously low, often resulting in a total wipeout. A number of theories are put forward for this, one of which is excessive predation by perch at a very delicate time for the newly hatched Carp, the Carp spawning at a much later time in the year to the Perch.

 

Another theory, which I think was alluded to by Steve in the previous post, is that of lower summer temperatures. By the time the temps are at a constant enough level for the Carp to spawn, our summers are well under way & this could result in the young Carp not being strong enough to survive the winter when the cold weather begins.

 

So the question is nightwing, how hot do your summers get & how long a summer do the hatchlings have before they have to brave the winter. Also what predation levels do your Carp have to put up with just after hatching?

 

Interesting thread!

[Guest Newt]

I'll at least toss in the average temperature information.

 

Winter 14/33ºF or -10/1ºC

Spring 25/68ºF or -4/20ºC

Summer 56/81ºF or 13/27ºC

Fall 32/71ºF or 0/22ºC

 

The do get much lower averages in the upper section (the upper peninsula) and the state records are -51ºF and 112ºF.

 

I think the key is warm and fairly long summers and fall weather that averages warmer than yours.

 

Some of the largest carp come from Lake Michigan which has fairly cool temeratures thru the summer but does have shallow areas that warm up quite a bit and provide spawning grounds for the carp.

 

Numerous preds around but also plenty of water and cover for the carp fry.

 

The part that I have never been able to figure out is why the carp up there get so much larger than those down where I live. Climate is much more temperate in winter, and warms up much quicker in spring with cooling much later in fall. Our summers are also hot and the waters down here get much warmer than any of the lakes in Michigan.

[Guest Bill Dingley]

Interesting reading the differing views on wild carp. Back in the 50s and 60s I used to fish for them on the Chichester canal and caught many dozens of them. Never had one of more than six pounds though. The general consensus of opinion in those days was that they never grew over the 8lb mark. I never discovered how they came to be in the canal but was told by old-timers that they were in there prior to the 2nd world war. For the benefit of younger readers that was before 1939. Anyone else fished there in recent years and if so are the carp still there? Cheers all.

 

Bill

[Guest Nightwing]

Average figures vary quite widely througout the state. I think the ones Newt posted are for the South East section, which is the warmest and has generaly the mildest weather in the state.

As you progress west and North, things get cooler and more erratic. Spawining here usually occours in Late May, into July, and fall turnover is usually in Mid October. Our predatore base is if anything much larger than yours, with many lakes containing dozens of predatory species. Common in most lakes are Pike, Walleye, Bass(2 species), Yellow perch, sunfish(up to 4 species common), Crapie, burbot, bowfin, gar, muskie. and several species of trout and salmon in cooler lakes.

[Guest Steve Burke]

In South East England I understand carp spawn most years in most waters. However, very few, and often none, of the fry survive their first winter due to lack of food, let alone predation. Commons survive best which may be one reason why after several generations commons become predominant.

 

To everyone's surprise, the carp stocks at Wingham rapidly increased, but then the waters are extremely rich, witness the exceptionally high growth rates. I've now had to introduce pike, and all carp under 17lbs (just increased from 15lbs) are now removed to maintain these growth rates.

 

What is interesting though is that the young fish are roughly two-thirds commons, whilst the stocking was roughly two-thirds mirrors. Next year I may have to increase the limit to 18lbs for mirrors and 20lbs for commons to stop the latter predominating.

 

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Wingham Fisheries

http://www.anglersnet.co.uk/fisheries/wingham.htm

[Guest peter mccue]

That's exactly what happened at Redmire Steve & was noted by none other than Dick Walker himself. Not a bad problem to have on a fishery though is it.

 

By the way, thanks for your advice on my book collection you were absolutely right, there was shocks galore!

 

Incidentally Steve, are you the same Steve Burke who co-edited 'the book of the Perch' because if you are that was another shock!

 

Much appreciated mate.

[Guest Steve Burke]

Peter, the carp spawning at Wingham was definitely something I didn't want, as if not dealt with it will affect the growth rate of the stocked fish. A few carp coming through is fine and was planned for, but not in numbers.

 

I'm trying to grow very big fish and so the water can't sustain a big head of carp even though it's very rich. Additionally, because of the depth and the many bars the only practical way of getting fish out is on rod and line. The only upside is that other fisheries are fighting over getting their hands on "pedigree" carp.

 

I'm glad the advice on the books was helpful. Some books are much sought after. For instance The Book of the Perch (yes, it was me), now changes hands at £75 to £105!

 

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Wingham Fisheries

http://www.anglersnet.co.uk/fisheries/wingham.htm

[Guest peter mccue]

Steve, 'book of the Perch' I know, & I also have a mint copy!