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Steve Coppolo's Vision


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#71 Guest_challenge_*

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Posted 02 January 2010 - 07:40 PM

Am sorry to of interrupted there Barry but for the life of me can I understand why (because you have no problem with another stakeholder, in this particular instance it was a commercial fisherman) doing something within the law (if this is so the case) then why does your opinion make you less of an angler????

#72 Steve Coppolo

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Posted 02 January 2010 - 08:37 PM

As long as there are fish like that out there to be caught, and we are all allowed to go out there and catch them, what's the problem? Instead of real anglers tearing chunks out of each other over who is catching the fish, why not focus your attention on the charlatans who are trying to stop you?

Edited by Steve Coppolo, 02 January 2010 - 08:38 PM.

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#73 barry luxton

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Posted 02 January 2010 - 08:46 PM

Come on big cod, i have already stated to all i have reservations with some aspects of trawling, see my last post for example re the bass. I can give a few more examples of what i consider bad practice with regards to trawling. I can no doubt go back through my posts for a few years and still come up with the fact that i do question what i consider to be bad practice.


Here's another for you. Watched an episode of trawlers rigs etc yesterday and the five hundred tonne haul palargic trawler missed his target and pulled in tonnes and tonnes of fish that had no economic use to him, over the side they went, dead. Including what looked like healthy sized bream, much better tasting than bass. Yes i do have a problem with that, don't have a problem discussing it though.


No problem Challenge, you are more than welcome, you can criticise me as well if you want. :D

Edited by barry luxton, 02 January 2010 - 08:53 PM.

 Free to choose apart from the ones where the trust poked their nose in. Common eel. tope. Bass and sea bream. All restricted.

 
New for 2016 TAT are the main instigators for the demise of the u k bass charter boat industry, where they went screaming off to parliament and for the first time assisting so called angling gurus set up bass take bans with the e u using rubbish exaggerated info collected by ices from anglers, they must be very proud.

Upgrade, the door has been closed with regards to anglers being linked to the e u superstate and the failed c f p. So TAT will no longer need to pay monies to the EAA anymore as that org is no longer relevant to the u k . Goodbye to the europeon anglers alliance and pathetic restrictions from the e u.

Angling is better than politics, ban politics from angling.
 
Consumer of bass. where is the evidence that the u k bass stock need angling trust protection. Why won't you work with your peers instead of castigating them. They have the answer.

Recipie's for mullet stew more than welcomed.
 
Angling sanitation trust and kent and sussex sea anglers org delete's and blocks rsa's alternative opinion on their face book site. Although they claim to rep all.
 
new for 2014. where is the evidence that the south coast bream stock need the angling trust? Your campaign has no evidence. Why won't you work with your peers, the inshore under tens? As opposed to alienating them? Angling trust failed big time re bait digging, even fish legal attempted to intervene and failed, all for what, nothing.
 
Looks like the sea angling reps have been coerced by the ifca's to compose sea angling strategy's that the ifca's at some stage will look at drafting into legislation to manage the rsa, because  they like wasting tax payers money. That's without asking the rsa btw. You know who you are.. 


#74 Jaffa

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Posted 03 January 2010 - 12:27 AM

The reply barry to steve was to show what anglers take in real terms aint any where near what can be caught commercially just out of curiosty what would you have said if it was large bass in that codend.

paul.


Thing is Paul, that it's easy to shout that what anglers take is nothing compared to the commercials where you and i live.


Is that true for brill and turbot down south? From what i have read its anglers that are the main predators..
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#75 H.A.

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Posted 03 January 2010 - 01:14 AM

Come on you 'commercials' ....

is that the best you can muster with Coppalot onside?

RSAs, for want of a better descriptor, have nothing in common with them.

Argue your points of view, even if that means (as it does) to get in bed with the civil servants, and get rid of obscene methods of fish-extraction.

I'm glad that some forms of commercial workings will be rid of in 5, 10, 20 years time; while fishermen (subsistence and hobbyists) will be able to go about their 'business'.

I'm afraid Coppalot and my viewpoints are miles apart.

Use whatever means (even to talk to the ladies and blokes at DEFRA) and you will get some regulation in favour of the conservation of fishes.

That's my aim; and I'll use all the corridors to achieve it.

Licences/bag limits?

Not if it can be helped; but then anything is better if the dreadful waste/destruction (not too strong a word) is to be stopped.

B)

#76 barry luxton

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Posted 03 January 2010 - 07:16 AM

Thing is Paul, that it's easy to shout that what anglers take is nothing compared to the commercials where you and i live.


Is that true for brill and turbot down south? From what i have read its anglers that are the main predators..


Now you'r talking Jaffa, give us a link with what you have read then. Bet that includes the skerries and the shambles banks. Looking forward to it already in eager anticipation :)

I know an angler with rod and line decimated the skerries last year by taking a 26 pounder, i even see the foto. Regarding the shambles, that was decimated two years ago now, gosh times fly, the culprit was yours truly. I admit to being crafty, i nipped into the mcz of the east shambles bouy area, can't be trawled you see, It went home and i ate it, naughty. :o :D

Edited by barry luxton, 03 January 2010 - 07:31 AM.

 Free to choose apart from the ones where the trust poked their nose in. Common eel. tope. Bass and sea bream. All restricted.

 
New for 2016 TAT are the main instigators for the demise of the u k bass charter boat industry, where they went screaming off to parliament and for the first time assisting so called angling gurus set up bass take bans with the e u using rubbish exaggerated info collected by ices from anglers, they must be very proud.

Upgrade, the door has been closed with regards to anglers being linked to the e u superstate and the failed c f p. So TAT will no longer need to pay monies to the EAA anymore as that org is no longer relevant to the u k . Goodbye to the europeon anglers alliance and pathetic restrictions from the e u.

Angling is better than politics, ban politics from angling.
 
Consumer of bass. where is the evidence that the u k bass stock need angling trust protection. Why won't you work with your peers instead of castigating them. They have the answer.

Recipie's for mullet stew more than welcomed.
 
Angling sanitation trust and kent and sussex sea anglers org delete's and blocks rsa's alternative opinion on their face book site. Although they claim to rep all.
 
new for 2014. where is the evidence that the south coast bream stock need the angling trust? Your campaign has no evidence. Why won't you work with your peers, the inshore under tens? As opposed to alienating them? Angling trust failed big time re bait digging, even fish legal attempted to intervene and failed, all for what, nothing.
 
Looks like the sea angling reps have been coerced by the ifca's to compose sea angling strategy's that the ifca's at some stage will look at drafting into legislation to manage the rsa, because  they like wasting tax payers money. That's without asking the rsa btw. You know who you are.. 


#77 cleeclive

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Posted 03 January 2010 - 09:00 PM

Now you'r talking Jaffa, give us a link with what you have read then. Bet that includes the skerries and the shambles banks. Looking forward to it already in eager anticipation :)

I know an angler with rod and line decimated the skerries last year by taking a 26 pounder, i even see the foto. Regarding the shambles, that was decimated two years ago now, gosh times fly, the culprit was yours truly. I admit to being crafty, i nipped into the mcz of the east shambles bouy area, can't be trawled you see, It went home and i ate it, naughty. :o :D


I think that there is a bit of rear end talk here regarding anglers being the main predators of brill and turbot, has Jaffa not heard of the SW beamer fleet from Brixham, Plymouth and Newlyn which has been chain harrowing the channel grounds since the mid 70's with the main aim of killing sole, brill, turbot and plaice for the continental markets. The problem with a lot of the current debate is that people do not have a knowledge of the history or conveniently forget it. The whole pattern of what has heppened since world war 2 clearly explains why we are in our current position.

#78 big_cod

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Posted 04 January 2010 - 12:04 AM

I think that there is a bit of rear end talk here regarding anglers being the main predators of brill and turbot, has Jaffa not heard of the SW beamer fleet from Brixham, Plymouth and Newlyn which has been chain harrowing the channel grounds since the mid 70's with the main aim of killing sole, brill, turbot and plaice for the continental markets. The problem with a lot of the current debate is that people do not have a knowledge of the history or conveniently forget it. The whole pattern of what has heppened since world war 2 clearly explains why we are in our current position.


Clive you are bang on mate you couldnt have said it better the thing is i havent forgot what it was like back in 70ss as you say a lot havent experinced just what the fishing was like back in those days or in a lot of cases they have just conveniently forget i have been out fishing our club match tonight on whitby beach the conditions were near perfect with gentle northeast swell on a big tide the sea temperature is now going down fast cod now tend to move onto the soft with a drop in water temperature i did manage 3 codling 1 which i returned and did have chance of a couple more plus one thing i did notice which i havent seen for a few years those fish i caught had sandeels in there mouths that is the best indicator you will ever get to draw codling onto the beaches around here but compair tonight with a night in the 70ss and you would probably have packed up and gone home it was quite chilly to say the least and it snowed for a good hour but get rapped up enough no problem but with conditions like tonight it would have been a fish a cast in the 70ss.

paul.



paul.

Edited by big_cod, 04 January 2010 - 07:55 AM.

http://sea-otter2.co.uk/

Probably Whitby's most consistent charterboat

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#79 Jaffa

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Posted 04 January 2010 - 12:57 AM

I think that there is a bit of rear end talk here regarding anglers being the main predators of brill and turbot, has Jaffa not heard of the SW beamer fleet from Brixham, Plymouth and Newlyn which has been chain harrowing the channel grounds since the mid 70's with the main aim of killing sole, brill, turbot and plaice for the continental markets. The problem with a lot of the current debate is that people do not have a knowledge of the history or conveniently forget it. The whole pattern of what has heppened since world war 2 clearly explains why we are in our current position.


Funnily enough i have heard about the beamer fleet in the channel. The rest of your post is opinion and the second world war cover story is getting tired. Facts would be nice ;) Landing stats for the channel are there to look at ;) :)

In the big world of "nature" was WW2 on the minds of the phytoplankton? Were the millions of people starving in India during the war years doing so because of the war, due to drought, or due to a combination of the two? or something else?

No offence Clive, but the problem with a lot of the "current debate" is that there is none; IMHO there is a quasi religous view about the world that just happens to fit the media and markets atm .

Lol never mind me and plough on :)

Chris
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#80 cleeclive

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Posted 04 January 2010 - 10:09 PM

Funnily enough i have heard about the beamer fleet in the channel. The rest of your post is opinion and the second world war cover story is getting tired. Facts would be nice ;) Landing stats for the channel are there to look at ;) :)

In the big world of "nature" was WW2 on the minds of the phytoplankton? Were the millions of people starving in India during the war years doing so because of the war, due to drought, or due to a combination of the two? or something else?

No offence Clive, but the problem with a lot of the "current debate" is that there is none; IMHO there is a quasi religous view about the world that just happens to fit the media and markets atm .

Lol never mind me and plough on :)

Chris


This was a little response I wrote in relation to Steve Copollos article on Euro vision, I doubt if it will have been published, but in my opinion it explains a little of why we are in the current situation today. I have worked closely with the commercial fishing industry since 1972 as a fishing gear technologist, in gear manufacturing, training, consultancy and more recently gear selectivity research. Throgh much of that time I was actively promoting the murder of fish for commercial gain, by any means, and I hold no appology for that, because at the time we thought the oceans were a bottomless resource. By the early 90's we began to see the error of our ways and I spent 10 years acively involved in selectivity research. After 38 years I am now a gardener and a total cynic, the victor Meldrew of fisheries for what it is worth!!!

I was most interested in Steve Copollo’s views on Euro Vision. Several of the early aspects regarding the discard problems from the commercial sector and the need for scientists to create jobs for themselves were points that I was raising on various Internet Forums a year ago however, and these are of course the core of our problem. I could not agree more about his views on quota as the key tool of fisheries management, but abandoning quota will not stop discarding it will just lead to ‘high grading’, the dumping of low value species to capitalise on the highest value part of the catch. Regrettably his views on future management are a total over simplification of the problem.

I also totally agree that we should pull out of the CFP and manage our own resources but it is not going to happen. The economic value of the British Fishing Industry of around £645 million per anum which is equivalent to that of the British Mushroom Industry or a Car plant, and we have seen plenty of the latter disappear without the bat of an eyelid by the powers that be.

I should perhaps at this point mention the views of the Angling Trust which has a heart that could be in the right place but shows an apparent lack of understanding of the history of the commercial fisheries decline and what anglers want. They do appear to be in ‘cloud cuckoo land at times’!

Perhaps the following table of events with approximate dates will highlight a journey to where we are today:-



Time Period Event Consequence
-1945 World War 2 Reduced fishing effort and growth of Fish Stocks
1946- Re opening of Arctic, Scottish and North Sea Fisheries (Strong Fish stocks) Large UK demand for fish as cheap food.
60’s & 70’s Cod wars with Iceland Eventual introduction of 200mile EEZs internationally, and the loss of all UK offshore fishing grounds
70’s UK joins the Common Market and the CFP emerges as a pre-cursor to us gaining membership The beginning of the coastal fishing boom and perhaps the end of the line!
70’s & 80’s Technological advances in vessel design, fishing gears and marine electronics. Significant grant aid to develop coastal and North Sea fishing fleets Expansion of catches, developing markets and good times for all in the fishing industry.
mid 80’s Is over-fishing starting to happen, panic sets in within the scientific community and ICES Quota management begins
1990’s The ‘Black Fish’ years, gross mis-reporting and the illegal landing of over quota catches Fisheries management in crisis, trying every trick in the book to reduce fishing effort and catches
Early 2000’s Fish stocks in crisis, large fleet reductions achieved in the 10-25m sector As fleets decline scientists and managers turn their attention to the under 10m sector, as key stocks are still failing to recover
Late 2000’s Coastal fish stocks and fleets destroyed Scientific community moving their interests towards environmental issues, and all those anglers out there
2009 Anglers under threat from under worked scientists Pointless legislation piled onto the angling community under the pretext of saving fish stocks.


Fisheries are currently managed in the following ways:-

We manage fishing effort through the EU Multi- Annual Guidance Programme
MAGP and effort control

–Fishing effort = Fishing capacity X Fishing activity

–Fishing capacity is the size of the vessel combined with its engine power which is defined as a Vessel Capacity Unit VCU

–VCU= length (m) x breadth (m) + 0.45 x Power (kW)

–Fishing effort is measured in different ways:-

for mobile gears it is measured in units of fishing time
for pelagic fishing days at sea is widely used
for static gear the quantity of gear and the soak time are the key factors

We must appreciate that the core science that we use for fisheries management is based upon the time series data that is collected and annually reviewed for stock assessment. The stock assessment scientists cannot change the way they do things despite the criticism that is levied at them and they believe that the key way of reducing pressure on resources is to restrict fishing activity, be that by fleet reduction, days at sea or a quota system with all of its failings.

Regarding Technical Measures which are the mesh sizes that we use and the additional devices that can be incorporated into fishing gears which make them species and or size selective, the key problem is compliance, and the cost effectiveness of policing the use of such nets. Whilst these concepts are useful they have limitations as an effective management tool.

The different quotas and rules are applied to vessels and are applicable to the different ICES areas:

We should also not forget that commercially landed fish are important in feeding the nation, supplying jobs in associated industries and bringing in export revenue. Although angling is of huge economic importance for many of the same reasons and also the tourism value to local economies. Whether the powers that be are convinced by these arguments is another question and perhaps some full economic studies are required to prove the point, but food against leisure may be prioritised politically.

I think that this all tells a very worrying story, and we must also realise some further important points;

1. Politicians would possibly like to see a decimated UK fleet that re-emerges in the hands of a few companies operating large efficient vessels, which are simple and cost effective to police.
2. ICES and the scientific community may not be so happy, so recruiting angling and various studies into the effects of climate change on fisheries should keep the ‘gravy train on track’.
3. A socialist political system that is keen on expanding public services and quangos supported with EU funding has been most helpful in supporting the flow of cash. There could be worrying times ahead with all this National Debt.
4. Remember also that the scientific community is now made of young graduates who have been educated to think that all of the hunter gatherers and exploiters of the planets resources be it for commercial gain or pleasure, were and are evil people. They now have the task of putting right all of the damage that we have done. We see this strongly within Natural England.
5. Our other threat comes from the anti-hunt lobby who would love to see us all banned from fishing

The facts are:-

1. We will not be leaving the CFP
2. Commercial Fishermen are not going to be our friends in this fight as they have nothing to gain from us.
3. A body fighting for us at a political level that proclaims to support so many aspects of our sport will put most effort into supporting the calls of its biggest financiers as we saw with the NFFO (National Federation of Fishermen’s Organisations).
4. Angling licences, closed areas, a police force and research teams investigating us are all around the corner, and may arrive a lot sooner than we think, most likely under the guise of “Environmental Protection of Coastal Marine Habitats”.

The biggest irony of all of this is that 20 years ago no one had ever heard of an Environmental Scientist and now they rule our lives.

But do not fear, they will need to study us for at least ten years before they have any statistically reliable data to discuss in their ICES Working Groups. This will lead to more research and more projects, by which time whole new departments will have evolved and the gravy train will be running at full speed. After this period of time the management aspects will start to creep in.

However for this to happen we will have to be licencesed and report catches and no doubt pay a fee to help fund all of this research etc.

The promises of improved catches in the coastal zone are little more than spin as everything that happens in the coastal zone is influenced by what happens in the 50 miles outside that zone, and I am afraid that the environmentally conscious angler who returns a few fish is ultimately having no impact at all upon resources when we look at the scale of the issues. As the editor said the Angling Trust’s Golden mile is little more than a worthless ‘red herring’!

Whilst I cannot offer any very constructive solutions to the problems we face, hopefully this brief historical review will enable your readers to appreciate the complexity of the issues. These are entrenched in politics, job creation schemes, divisiveness and strong environmental positions which ultimately put common sense up to blow away in a storm.

Clive Radcliffe

Retired Commercial Fishing Gear Technologist
And Senior Lecturer in Fisheries.