Bring it On

[thedogs]

Even with my very limited mathematical skills I can work it out. Is simple really, cut pressure on a stock of fish leads to less fish being caught and more fish staying in the sea for us anglers to target.

 

Targeting government to restrict legitimate commercial pressure has failed dismally. This gutless administration just aint got the stomach for it.

 

So instead of waiting yet more valuable time why not lobby government to enforce existing laws. This would cut the part time un licensed effort fairly quickly after a succession of nicking started to build a deterrent.

 

I understand it’s hard to prove un licensed netters and anglers are selling fish. But it is also hard to catch and prosecute drug deals but they get caught. God knows what state the country would be in if narcotics were run like our fishery.

[glennk]

The current increase in fish species in many parts of the UK is a result of all the prosecutions you have been reading about in the press and on the marine fisheries website. The new level of increased enforcement, less days at sea and increased fuel prices have only been in place for 12-24 months and the increase we are seeing in cod stocks is astounding. If the current levels continue things will be good for everyone in the next few years, with the obvious exception of those anglers who think you dont need to put any effort into your sport.

[glennk]

Hello Glenn

 

what else will there be left for them to get involved in? Once they have finished with the under ten fleet, devised a way of crippling the shell fish sector and closed of large parts of prime fishing grounds (NTZ's) One million anglers will be deemed as the main unregulated threat to fish stocks.

 

 

Yes Peter Its certainly looking that way. What you said many years ago is now coming true. DEFRA and SFC need to keep themselves in work - "The Need To Manage Brigade". The under 10's will be managed out of business inside of 5 years now, The remaining fish quotas will be awarded to the big players who are few in numbers but powerful in lobbey, you are currently seeing this redistribution on a slow yearly process. This coming year another slice of the pie will be removed from your plate and put on someone elses.

 

Because there will be so few commercial fishermen on the water who will be left to manage ? The sea angler will come under the microscope. Needless restrictions will be put in place. Does this mean more fish for them poor folk who cant buy a bite at present ?? No it doesnt as the reason they cant catch fish is they havent a clue what they are doing. The same anglers would blank in the supposed hey days of the 60's,70's and 80's. You know the types - Rusty hooks, rotting traces and mouldy bait.

[ColinW]

I've said before that I regard charter boats as commercial fishing vessels and think they should be subject to the same rules (quotas or whatever system is in place) as any other commercial vessel. The vast majority of anglers fish off the shore and I can assure you we do NOT catch vast quantities of fish, certainly not commercially valuable ones in any case.

 

Two million anglers catching one bass each for a total of 1500 tons equates to an average size of 0.75kg each. Most anglers would put fish that size back and we catch more than that. So let's, for the sake of argument, pluck a bigger figure out of thin air and say we take 10,000 tonnes. The question is, so what? That's 10,000 tonnes shared between two million of us. Not 10,000 tonnes taken by a handful of commercials just so they can pay off the loans on their million pound boats. I would hope the fishery managers DO take those 10,000 tonnes into consideration should they ever get off their arses and do something to protect bass stocks. I'd hate to think their estimate of the total catch ignored those fish; and be even more angry if they didn't include the fish taken by the miles of gill net on my local beaches and the inshore fishing boats. If those combined catches are enough to "make a dent" in the stocks then maybe those should be the only kinds of fishing allowed!

[The doctor]

Before any of the cuddle crew shoot me down in flames I'm not trying to be confrontational or take any side, but;

 

Fishing mortality is coming down on pretty much most of the main commercial stocks, and fishing mortality is predominantly linked to fishing effort, so it is untrue to say that efforts to lobby for a reduction in fishing effort/mortality have failed, if that was the case stocks would continue to decline, and with one or two notable exceptions, there is more evidence to show an increase and gradual stabilisation of these stocks than there is for a decline. What is open to speculation is who's lobbying efforts brought around the acknowledgement by the European Commission that drastic and emergency measures were required to bring down fishing mortality (effort), not that it matters to most people, its the end result that counts.

 

The problem is that we are still very much in the early days of recovery; it takes a lot longer to recover fish stocks than it does to ruin them. Despite all the doom and gloom merchants, or possibly in spite of the doom and gloom merchants the UK fishing industry is pretty resilient. The claims that DEFRA & SFC’s etc are managing the inshore fleet out of existence is not supported from a historical perspective, in fact the decline of the English, Welsh and Irish inshore fleets since 2001 (in terms of the number of fishing vessels) equates to approximately 9.5% over an 8 year period which works out at almost 1.2% per year. In 2001 there were 3,371 under 10m vessels in the English, Welsh & Irish inshore fleets, in July 2008 those fleets comprise 3,059 under 10m vessels, that’s a reduction of 312 vessels (9.5%) over 8 years. If a comparison is made to July 2007, then there were 3,068 registered under 10m fishing vessels, which during a period when quotas have began to bite, is a decline of 9 vessels.

 

Looking specifically at the north and east coast, in 2001 there were 42 under 10m boats working out of Whitby,6 out of Staithes, 23 out of Scarborough, 9 out of Flamborough and 15 out of Bridlington. In 2008, there are 32 under 10m boats working out of Whitby (c. 25% decrease), 7 out of Staithes (c. 15% increase), 37 out of Scarborough (c. 60% increase), 9 out of Flamborough (status quo) and 25 out of Bridlington (c. 40% increase). As Whitby bucks the trend it could be that it’s not specifically related to fishing or fisheries management that’s responsible for the decline of the under 10’s, most probably as a result of social change. However, there is another consideration to take and this is tied up with a point made by a couple of posters, that being in order land fish onto the key/market, the vessel/person doing so must have held (in 2001) a pressure stock licence. From my experience, a number of charter vessels in Whitby did indeed hold such entitlements and they were classified and recorded as commercial fishing boats, this also applied to a number of vessels in Bridlington. I’m not sure when, but I think that this entitlement was removed during the early days of the cod recovery management plan, I know the same skippers in Brid cannot land cod anymore, but they can land non pressure stock species (Bass, Pollock etc.). It is therefore possible that there has been no significant decline in the inshore fleet at Whitby, just a removal from the vessel list of charter vessels who no longer have an entitlement; this is particularly relevant at Whitby when you consider how large the charter fleet used to be.

 

Consequently, the angling charter vessels are not acting illegally, as they have as much right to land certain species of fish as any other commercial fisherman with a category B (prawns) or C licence (non pressure stock), I have to say I’m not 100% certain on the licensing situation as it can be quite complex, but hopefully Wurzel can fill in any gaps or put right any misinterpretations, all I do know is that all or most under 10’s have a Cat A licence, many with shellfish entitlement. The problem lies with some sectors not being able to draw a distinction, between what’s legal and what’s not, and more often than not are too concerned with what someone else is doing rather than concentrating on what they are doing.

 

The picture with the over 10m and predominantly offshore sector is different, over the same time scale (2001 – 2008) there has been a 25% reduction in the number of fishing vessels active in England, Wales and Northern Ireland. On a local level this translates to a reduction of about 40% at Whitby and 20% at Bridlington, although there is a slight increase recorded at Scarborough (8%). So all in all, there is no evidence of the government, MFA and or the Sea Fisheries Committees targeting the inshore fishing fleets and trying to bring about the demise of this sector. There is evidence of responsible management and attempts to ensure sustainability of our inshore fisheries, now I can see where that may be considered to be a bad thing if your having the amount of fish you can catch being cut or restricted, and I sympathise, but sustainable fisheries are not achieved by allowing free for alls, low fish stocks have to be managed, not just for fishermen but for other stakeholders (anglers) but probably more importantly, for the benefit of the environment and ecosystem.

[Guest challenge]

Because there is nothing else to police since most of the commercial boats have gone bust. As with all bureaucrats they need figures on their weekly/monthly stats sheets. The more work they have done the more money will come to their department. As is the case at all levels of national and local government the quality or the necessity of the work is completely irrelevant they just need the figures, and this is what concerns me so much about DEFRA and SFC's becoming involved in Sea Angling.

 

I do realise that our website is in need of some serious up dating, but I can assure you that there is no updating regarding our targets that says we are to spend more time targeting anglers (in an enforcement scenario) at this present time.

http://www.neseafish.gov.uk/nesfc/performance.html

 

 

A lot of our intelligence information comes from the general public and quite a bit comes from the commercial fishing industry. We have a duty to respond in some way to this information.

I can also assure you that our workload has not decreased over the past 12 months with the decrease of trawling activity within our district. just the opposite in fact, with new by-laws put into place to help the regulating of the shellfish industry and the introduction of recreational licences for people wanting to carry on participating in the shellfish and restricted fixed engine fishery has meant that we now have in place the tools to make the management of these fisheries much more accountable to those wanting to take part in the fishery and to us who have to enforce the by-laws of this fishery.

I do recognize your concerns in regards to angling, especially with the new marine bill knocking on the door. I can only see much more bureaucratic legislation coming the way of the SFC, s and an increase in effort needed to achieve new goals that will be set by powers invested within the new bill.

http://erycdata.eastriding.gov.uk/pls/port...MARINE+BILL.PDF

[sharpshooter]

Consequently, the angling charter vessels are not acting illegally, as they have as much right to land certain species of fish as any other commercial fisherman with a category B (prawns) or C licence (non pressure stock), I have to say I’m not 100% certain on the licensing situation as it can be quite complex, but hopefully Wurzel can fill in any gaps or put right any misinterpretations, all I do know is that all or most under 10’s have a Cat A licence, many with shellfish entitlement. The problem lies with some sectors not being able to draw a distinction, between what’s legal and what’s not, and more often than not are too concerned with what someone else is doing rather than concentrating on what they are doing.

 

All under 10m boats hold a category A licience. Cat B and C only apply to over 10m.

 

Your point (IMHO) is flawed as the number of vessels will stay the same, as they still exist. The numbers that actually work and land fish will fall as more and more struggle with the price of fuel and gettind decent crews.

 

There are hundreds of U10m boats up for sale, with noone wanting to buy, as for the moment atleast the future looks bleak; uncertain at best.

 

Myself and many other 'lifetime' professionals strongly believe that the industry is going through a few 'hard years' where by the fleet will be slimmed down to those using more sustainable and economically efficient methods (ie - use less fuel), and with more and more boats working single handed as there is obviously no crew to have to pay.

 

The current fuel crisis is the most effective fisheries management tool in the history of the industry.

That, coupled with the current U10m quota mess, sees, more and more people trying to get out. With no one (sain) wanting to buy their boats at the moment, they have no way out, other than to hope for decomissioning to be introduced for the U10's. Even if this comes into force, there is a poultry figure on the table, enough to buy out a select few of the top catches, so any decommisioning will, in effect be "invite only" or "dont ring us; we'll ring you"

 

Over 10's are not suffering the same quota crisis, so there are fewer boats on the market. Some of these boats are doomed with the cost of fuel, the others are having to make changes to become more fuel efficient in order to survive.

The cost of fuel will never drop to pervious levels, so those beamers burning £20k of fuel in a week will never be financially viable again.

No doubt the governement will bail them out with more decomissioning money rather than trying to reduce the number of under10's or try to increase their quota allowance by spending money on that instead.

[thedogs]

Before any of the cuddle crew shoot me down in flames I'm not trying to be confrontational or take any side, but;

 

Fishing mortality is coming down on pretty much most of the main commercial stocks, and fishing mortality is predominantly linked to fishing effort, so it is untrue to say that efforts to lobby for a reduction in fishing effort/mortality have failed, if that was the case stocks would continue to decline, and with one or two notable exceptions, there is more evidence to show an increase and gradual stabilisation of these stocks than there is for a decline. What is open to speculation is who's lobbying efforts brought around the acknowledgement by the European Commission that drastic and emergency measures were required to bring down fishing mortality (effort), not that it matters to most people, its the end result that counts.

 

The problem is that we are still very much in the early days of recovery; it takes a lot longer to recover fish stocks than it does to ruin them. Despite all the doom and gloom merchants, or possibly in spite of the doom and gloom merchants the UK fishing industry is pretty resilient. The claims that DEFRA & SFC’s etc are managing the inshore fleet out of existence is not supported from a historical perspective, in fact the decline of the English, Welsh and Irish inshore fleets since 2001 (in terms of the number of fishing vessels) equates to approximately 9.5% over an 8 year period which works out at almost 1.2% per year. In 2001 there were 3,371 under 10m vessels in the English, Welsh & Irish inshore fleets, in July 2008 those fleets comprise 3,059 under 10m vessels, that’s a reduction of 312 vessels (9.5%) over 8 years. If a comparison is made to July 2007, then there were 3,068 registered under 10m fishing vessels, which during a period when quotas have began to bite, is a decline of 9 vessels.

 

Looking specifically at the north and east coast, in 2001 there were 42 under 10m boats working out of Whitby,6 out of Staithes, 23 out of Scarborough, 9 out of Flamborough and 15 out of Bridlington. In 2008, there are 32 under 10m boats working out of Whitby (c. 25% decrease), 7 out of Staithes (c. 15% increase), 37 out of Scarborough (c. 60% increase), 9 out of Flamborough (status quo) and 25 out of Bridlington (c. 40% increase). As Whitby bucks the trend it could be that it’s not specifically related to fishing or fisheries management that’s responsible for the decline of the under 10’s, most probably as a result of social change. However, there is another consideration to take and this is tied up with a point made by a couple of posters, that being in order land fish onto the key/market, the vessel/person doing so must have held (in 2001) a pressure stock licence. From my experience, a number of charter vessels in Whitby did indeed hold such entitlements and they were classified and recorded as commercial fishing boats, this also applied to a number of vessels in Bridlington. I’m not sure when, but I think that this entitlement was removed during the early days of the cod recovery management plan, I know the same skippers in Brid cannot land cod anymore, but they can land non pressure stock species (Bass, Pollock etc.). It is therefore possible that there has been no significant decline in the inshore fleet at Whitby, just a removal from the vessel list of charter vessels who no longer have an entitlement; this is particularly relevant at Whitby when you consider how large the charter fleet used to be.

 

Consequently, the angling charter vessels are not acting illegally, as they have as much right to land certain species of fish as any other commercial fisherman with a category B (prawns) or C licence (non pressure stock), I have to say I’m not 100% certain on the licensing situation as it can be quite complex, but hopefully Wurzel can fill in any gaps or put right any misinterpretations, all I do know is that all or most under 10’s have a Cat A licence, many with shellfish entitlement. The problem lies with some sectors not being able to draw a distinction, between what’s legal and what’s not, and more often than not are too concerned with what someone else is doing rather than concentrating on what they are doing.

 

The picture with the over 10m and predominantly offshore sector is different, over the same time scale (2001 – 2008) there has been a 25% reduction in the number of fishing vessels active in England, Wales and Northern Ireland. On a local level this translates to a reduction of about 40% at Whitby and 20% at Bridlington, although there is a slight increase recorded at Scarborough (8%). So all in all, there is no evidence of the government, MFA and or the Sea Fisheries Committees targeting the inshore fishing fleets and trying to bring about the demise of this sector. There is evidence of responsible management and attempts to ensure sustainability of our inshore fisheries, now I can see where that may be considered to be a bad thing if your having the amount of fish you can catch being cut or restricted, and I sympathise, but sustainable fisheries are not achieved by allowing free for alls, low fish stocks have to be managed, not just for fishermen but for other stakeholders (anglers) but probably more importantly, for the benefit of the environment and ecosystem.

 

 

These facts are interesting and its good to know things are on the mend in many ways. However you are talking about listened boats, what about the pressure put on localised populations of fish like bass by un licensed commercial fishermen?

Tagging has shown that bass will return to the same areas year after year. So a shoal can be very localised and be hit hard by un licensed netters and rod and liners.

So to police the inshore fishery hard and bring down this pressure surly would be a good thing?

[glennk]

Just how big a problem is unlicensed netting or hobby netting in reality Sam ? I realise there are no figures on this but do you think if the hobby netters weren't there your bass fishing and bass stocks would significantly improve ? I am a bit oblivious to this as living around a Salmon River very few people get away with beach netting other than those with licences and the odd person who places nets on the scars south of Saltwick.

[glennk]

All under 10m boats hold a category A licience. Cat B and C only apply to over 10m.

 

Your point (IMHO) is flawed as the number of vessels will stay the same, as they still exist. The numbers that actually work and land fish will fall as more and more struggle with the price of fuel and gettind decent crews.

 

Ive spoke to Nigel about this before and he has often said that if the boats and the licenses still exist they can easily be put back in use at anytime.

 

As always statistics can be put to any use and perhaps the stats do show little decrease in the existance of boats but perhaps a more realistic picture could be found by looking at fish landings and speeking to the individual skippers of these boats who will tell you they are being squeezed out slowly but surely.