carp and the use of groundbait (ground bait)

[Phone]

All,

 

Try saying this out loud today in England

 

University of Liverpool (UK) and English Nature (UK) Collaborative Project

 

 

""""As early as 1929 Cahn described how a pond, filled with macrophytes and containing various native fish species, became turbid and devoid of plants following the introduction of carp. King and Hunt (1967) found that carp were excessively destructive to submerged vegetation. Crivelli (1983) found a strong negative correlation between carp biomass and macrophyte abundance. Decline of aquatic plants consequently causes a reduction in populations of large invertebrates such as snails and dragonflies. Other fish suffer in turn as they are dependent upon the invertebrates for food, spawning sites around the macrophytes or water clarity for visual hunting and feeding. In addition herbivorous and piscivorous birds may also disappear (Giles et al., 1990; Phillips, 1992; Dennis, 1996). Conversely the removal of fish such as carp and bream from lakes has often seen submerged macrophytes return and flourish (Wright and Phillips, 1992; Van Donk et al., 1989, 1990; Ozimek et al., 1990).""""

 

I don't agree with this study. I believe artifical feeding is the problem.

 

This study "blames" 700kg of ground bait per angler per year as the "problem" - if there is a problem. Coupling insights from a carp, Cyprinus carpio, angler survey with feeding experiments to evaluate composition, quality and phosphorus input of groundbait in coarse fishing (you'll have to google as I don't know how to add the url)

 

 

Phone

[Steve Walker]

The damaging effects of carp were well established by Brian Moss's group at Liverpool university a long time ago. See;

 

http://freespace.virgin.net/ae.williams/New/2002%20Freshwater%20Biology%20-%2047%20-%202216-2232%20Fish%20induced%20macrophyte%20loss%20in%20shallow%20lakes%20top-down%20and%20bottom-up%20processes%20in%20mesocosm%20experiments.pdf

 

It's not just carp, by the way, high populations of other large bottom-grubbing cyprinids were identified as causing the same problem. Except that in the UK, it is mostly carp, because everyone wants to fill every muddy puddle with the bloody things!

[Vagabond]

I don't agree with this study.

OK, and which of the ten studies quoted by the Authors do you also not agree with ?

 

Put carp in a pond, and the vegetation disappears, just as surely as when it rains, the earth gets wet.

[Phone]

Steve, Vagabond,

 

Not true - Steve, your bias is showing. You say, "high populations of other large bottom-grubbing cyprinids were identified as causing the same problem". Moss didn't say that in either paper. See #4 and 5. Moss finds the same "cause" in both studies. Excessive bio-mass. Carp don't "bottom grub".

 

Vagabond,

 

The specific study quoted in " " in my previous post. However,No study has ever conclusively proven the introduction of carp devoid macrophytes in well balanced water. They, the researchers, just quote each another as thought it is fact. It isn't and to my knowledge there is no such study. Carp, in overstocked conditions, especially where the bottom is knee deep in groundbait, do contribute to an unavoidable problem with their chemical waste products. Still, it is FAR more likely macrophytes are overwhelmed by groundbait. It's like covering your tomatos with dirt every time one pops through the ground. Overstocking of carp in the US is generally from the harvest of predators giving carp an unfair advantage, which they gladly take.. I can only assume in the UK such stocking is artificial - you tell me.

 

Phone

 

Phone

[Vagabond]

Well, if you are in denial, there's no more to be said.

 

I've seen, in my short 70 years of fishing, once clear, weedy waters become the colour of lentil soup, in the UK, in Australia, and even in the USA. The common factor ? Carp - thousands of them.

 

You can't blame groundbait for the muddying and weed loss of the entire lower Murray-Darling system in Australia !

 

The analogy with rainfall is carefully chosen - a few drops of rain, not much of the earth gets wet - it soon dries out, and nobody notices.

 

A few carp in a very large weedy lake, only a few macrophytes lost, soon covered up by regrowth, and nobody notices.

 

Serious rain, or serious stocking with carp (or a population explosion), and its a different story

Edited July 13, 2013 by Vagabond

[Phone]

Vagabond,

 

I couldn't have said it better. Let's leave OZ out, they hate carp, even the researchers hate carp and I cannot dispute the watershed or biomass you refer. Muddy water ='s "thousands of them" is often true. By your admission a "few"(?) carp are not harmful. The only time carp (common carp) will denude a lake is for survival. They are survivors. Un-noticed will be that "natural" food sources have been exhausted - then the macrophyte dissapears.

 

No one disagrees when they become the overwhelming biomass to all other species they can screw things up. Is that the carp's fault? I've seen some pretty nasty trout waters in my time. Disclaimer: Carp trash anything in sight when spawning - but they aren't eating it.

 

What is to be said is that Smith cites Jones who cites Miller who cites etc to come up with the notion that carp "naturally" root out microphyte. I've traced the citation chain back 11 generations. Carp haters accept this notion as fact. Carp simply don't do that. I would more likely equate their contribution to the bottom structure as being similar to an earthworm.

 

I DO blame groundbait. Is it ture, on average, you use 700kg a year per angler?

 

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[Gerangler]

I agree with Vagabond: carps are causing muddy waters. I saw it on a lake where no feed was introduced. But I think there is no reason to argue, because the most waters are far away from what anyone would call natural or balanced. The problem with introducing baits, if you would say it is a problem, is that we all put a lot a biomass into the waters. But we do not take anything out of it. That is a one way trip to eutrophic waters. But please tell me, do you have serious problems with many waters in the uk?

[Steve Walker]

No, if we did use that much the macrophytes would be alder and willow growing atop a small hillock.

[Phone]

Steve,

 

How about 700 lbs? I'm not being smart. I too though that number was suspect (in both Liverpool studies). Give me some idea (?). One of would have to go have a look again. I believe that included "bait" i.e. boilies. Ha ha, I doubt if it included mole hill dirt.

 

I have, on a number of occasion related the story of a pond in England that had to have the fish temporarily moved whilst a meter of luncheon meat was scooped off the bottom. I never get much comment. (I believe it was one of Bruno's ponds should you ever talk to him)

 

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[Andy Macfarlane]

I don't even believe 700lbs. That would be 1.91lbs of groundbait being used if you fished 365 days of the year. So every 3 years, each and every angler is adding a tonne of groundbait into the water?? There would be no water left! It would be like one of these mud-filled holes, writhing with lungfish, that are found dotted around the African desert at the end of the dry season.