Mouth damage

[Guest Josh Iddon]

I dont agree with barbless hooks being worst for fish. I agree with andrew that how could that tiny piece of metal make a difference of the hook twisting. I too have seen a marked inprovement in the condition of fishes mouths with the ban of barbed hooks at a lake I fish.

 

IMO Barbless hooks are more safe for fish because if the line breaks no matter how unsafe the rig is, I would think 9/10 the fish could get of the barbless hook within a minute or so. Josh :)

Edited February 8, 2006 by Josh Iddon

[Anderoo]

I'm with Josh on the barbless issue - in my experience they're nearly always the best option if used with balanced tackle and no brute force. Merlino, did you used to experience mouth damage with barbless? What kind of set-up were you using (tackle, rigs, etc.)? I can honestly say that there's no need for me to always use barbed/microbarbed hooks because (for me) this problem doesn't exist.

Edited February 8, 2006 by Anderoo

[Steve Burke]

Long-standing members will know that barbed v barbless hooks is a topic that comes up regularly. To save repeating myself this is what I posted recently on the Coarse Forum:

 

"I agree with Leon that it's horses for courses and depends on the species/circumstances. It also depends on the size and design of the hooks themselves.

 

In my experience barbless hooks tend to do less damage on unhooking (especially by inexperienced anglers), whilst barbed hooks can do more damage during striking and playing.

 

Why barbed hooks cause more damage then is often debated.

 

Some years ago I was also of the opinion that there should be no differences between barbed and barbless hooks, with for instance each penetrating equally. However, like a number of other experienced perch anglers, I found that barbless hooks were causing some perch deaths. Obviously I was wrong, so what could the problem be?

 

At the time I was in the tackle trade and so talked about the matter with a hook manufacturer.

 

They pointed out that hooks often go in at an angle and thus, although the distance penetrated is the same, the point of the hook doesn't always reach that far below the surface of the skin.

 

However the angle can subsequently change, especially during the playing of the fish. A barbed hook would tend to stay in the same place and at the same angle. On the other hand a barbless one would be more likely to move and thus the angle change, with the point of the hook possibly ending up further from the surface.

 

Additionally, as barbless hooks can move about more easily, they would be more likely to pierce vital organs anyway.

 

This suggestion seemed to be a logical explanation.

 

However, whatever the reason, what to me is more important is results in the field - and these showed that barbless hooks are not the best for perch.

 

Only a tiny barb seems to be needed, and in fact the pattern of hook I prefer for perch fishing has a miniscule one. In fact the barb on the size 6 is about the same size as a normal microbarbed size 16!

 

Having said that the state of the mouths of some UK fish is deplorable. This is all too often the case on overfished waters where fish are caught repeatedly, especially by beginners. If I managed a commercial water (God forbid!) I might well insist on barbless hooks for this reason.

 

On the other hand, an increasing number of specimen waters are now banning barbed hooks.

 

At Wingham I allow a free choice on the Carp Lake as it doesn't contain perch. However the Coarse Lake does, and here I ban barbless hooks above size 10. In each case I state that I prefer microbarbs.

 

So if you want to come to the next Forum Fish-In at Wingham, you'll either have to obey the fishery rules or I'm afraid decide not to come!"

 

Anyone interested in this subject may like to do a search of past topics for "barbless".

Edited February 8, 2006 by Steve Burke

[Peter Sharpe]

I stopped using barbed hooks when I became sick of them bedding in right up to the eye - and I was using neither bent nor long shanked hooks. This happened fairly infrequently, but often enough to make me feel terrible about it. I have also had to remove other people's barbed hooks from carp that I have landed.

Since using hooks with completely flattened barbs I have never had a problem. I really can't imagine what on earth people must be doing to cause the kind of tearing damage that they claim is caused by barbless hooks. I have never once had any more than the very slight tearing that was caused just as equally by barbed hooks. The big difference is that I can now often unhook them without having to use forceps.

The damage caused by big leads is a big problem. I have cringed at times when feeling the bounce of even a three ounce lead while playing a fish. The knowledge that people use leads of six ounces or even more for a fish they intend to return fills me with horror. Weights of that size should be relegated to cod fishing in a heavy swell.

Edited February 12, 2006 by Peter Sharpe

[Guest Brumagem Phil]

Interesting thread,

 

I'm of the opinion that there is not really one cause for mouth damage, although some reasons perhaps cause more damage than others.

 

My local commercial lake, Earlswood has some terribly mashed up fish in it. I hate to see em like that to be honest and have watched to see if I can pick up pointers. Repeated capture of course has to be a top culprit....the mouths simply dont have time to heal and end up big lumps of scar tissue in places.

 

Bullying specially by match fishermen is another top candidate.........I've watched 12 lb carp dragged in in around 20 seconds with almost half their body out of the water by the time they approach the net.

 

Not a big fan of barbed hooks. Apart from steves argument about possible depth penetration of perch which I accept, anyone who thinks barbed are better for the fish is welcome to meet up with me.......I'll stick a barbless through my bottom lip with some 15 lb line on it and they can stick a barbed through theirs with some line on it.....to that line we'll tie 4 pack of beer and walk around with em for a few minutes and then remove them and see whose lip is in the best condition. Bet there aint too many barbed advocates up for that challenge though

 

The weight around the eyes ways an interesting observation by whoever mentioned it........never thought of that. I agree of course a heavy lead bouncing around could account for some mouth damage.......in fact this alone is a prime candidate for those small tears which occur sometimes.

[Dick Dastardly]

People have expressed the opinion that they cant see how the small amount of metal that constitutes a barb can actually resist the great forces applied to it.Truth is no matter what gear your using very little pressure can actually be applied to the hook untill the fish is very close.Think Im talking rubbish then just try it for your self!

 

For the record I think barbed cause less damage in the larger (above size 10) and certainly agree with Steves findings with Perch.And findings is indeed what I base this on not theories.I don’t pretend to understand the exact mechanics but practical experience has lead me to this conclusion.All though maybe the fact that I have only ever used barbless carp hooks a lot for long range (100m+ ) fishing (working on the premise that it would be easier to set the hook,this being much pre self hooking/pricking rig days) could have given me a false picture(?) and it merely being the length of the fight that caused the problems.I don’t know for sure as after the 5th damaged fish I reverted to barbed and had no problems.(er not strictly true as I did have one on a barbed hook where the hook length had tangled with the hair and the hook had “worked “its way in Bent hook style.

 

As allready mentioned it is the applying of to much pressure that is the result of most mouth damage.Also this is caused as said by several different things all of which are down to a lack of knowledge.Another main factor is that inexperienced anglers often panic and pile the pressure on at the net causing pulled hooks.

 

One thing that isnt often mentioned that I find (or should say have found) is the use (or rather the incorrect use) of some braided materials for hook lengths. I have found that the flat profile braids such as the 25lb Silkworm often reccomended tend to cut far too easily.Ultra low diameter to high BS mainline monos are also bad news when used as hook lengths.

 

The one time world record common from the lake is known as "Scar Face" as an angler using a 3 1/4lb rod coupled with a 30lb braided main line and 20lb hook length nearly ripped the hook clean out as he tried to back wind as the fish made a last minute run at the net. Quite an experienced predator angler but hadnt done much carping,certainly not for fish of this size any way! The fish was landed but now carrys a 2" long scar where thank fully the rip healed.Braided mainlines had to be banned...not because they are bad but because they are bad in the hands of inexperienced anglers.

 

As also previously mentioned the reason behind a lot of this inexperience is the relatively new (post Carp Fever any way) phenonomen of the instant "Big Carp" angler.These days many take up carp fishing and target these big and powerfull fish armed with all the latest gear and baits but missing that most important ingrediant ie experience.With out learning the basic skills required to correctly select appropriate tackle and play fish of a gradually increasing size problems are bound to occur.

 

Think Im being unfair? Never saw much evidence of mouth damage in the 70's or untill the infamous "bent hook rig" in the late 80's.The days when a 2 3/4lb rod was regarded as an ultra long range casting tool for use abroad and 2lb rod as being stepped up! also not many leads over 2ozs were used and the main quality sought after in a hook length matirial was soft/suppleness not breaking strain or low diameter.

[Peter Sharpe]

Interesting observations Budgie. I forgot to mention that I nearly always use rods with 2.25 lb test curves, which probably make damage far less likely.

[steve17]

I have found hook size to be quite relevant too, last summer i was fishing with two rods, one on a size 8 barbless esp raptor, the other with a size 10 esp barbless raptor. i landed a few on the size 8 rod and had no problems with mouth damage, yet the 1st fish i landed on the size 10 rod ripped a 1" tear down the side of the carps mouth, as soon as i noticed that i changed to a size 8 on that rod too and continued catching fish through out the day with out so much as a rip or tare. just for the record both rods were coupled with 2oz leads.

 

More recently i have fished size 10 barbed drennan super specialists (under completely different circumstances) with 2 oz leads, (most of you will probabily know super specialsts are a relatively small pattern hook anyway) and have landed a few carp, all with the hook firmly set in place. It has not moved, tore or dislodged in any way and has been easy enough to remove at all times.

 

This makes me wonder if when using smaller hooks to scale down barbed it actually the better option when fishing for double figure carp.

 

I certianly wont be using size 10 barbless raptors when fishing for 10lb + carp again, they are very short shank hooks mind, i guess that plays a part....

Edited February 10, 2006 by steve17

[Julian]

Whilst all the points discussed so far undoubtedly play a part, I’m amazed nobody has mentioned the effect that poor handling, once netted, has on mouth damage. We all know how a fish *should* be lifted once netted to ensure there is no pressure on the line if the fish is still hooked when you lift the net, but time after time after time I see anglers grabbing hold of line net and all when lifting the fish from the water, and then when pulling back the folds of the net to find the barbed hook has come out, say something like “that was lucky, must have only just been hooked”

 

Hardly… you’ve just pulled the dam thing right out of its mouth!!

 

If you’re looking for a major cause of mouth damage, that would be a good place to start.

[johnhere]

OI OI

im with lilly pad on this one, ive said it before & i'll say it again barbless hooks slide once they have been hooked, up & down the lip i ALWAY'S use micro barb & the problem for my fish has been eliminated,

try a MICROBARBED HOOK even if your not aloud barbed just try one for an hour or so.

 

 

I 100% agree. It's Microbarbed hooks for me. Barbless cause massive problems ok for small fish.