Guernsey Consulting on Bag Limits for Anglers

[chappers]

I believe that bag limits will become a thing of the future and personnally have no problem with it, and neither should any sporting angler, last year i fished on a boat from Rhode island where the striped bass are limited to a 2 per person landing limit (and it is enforced, boats are pulled over regularly, our skipper was late picking us up as he was pulled over on his way in from his previous trip)between the four of us including the skipper and his mate we landed 6 fish, we actually caught over a dozen fish between us but the fact that we only brought in 6 fish in no way diminished the enjoyment we got from the trip. As Toerag says the extra pressure on the fish has probably come from the english charter fleet.

When I first started going to Alderney back in the late eighties/early nineties there was only Roger Bayzand and Paul Whittall going over regularly with a few others making the odd trip, last year when I wenton the busiest 3 days there were twelve English charters over and say in the peak of the season where boats are catching 30 plus flats each that is a large impact on the stock.

 

I agree that this consultation from the Guernsey commercials doesn't have conservation at heart, but is probably a mainland/island type thing but surely bag limits would be better than a more severe consultation which ends up with english charters being effectively banned from the islands.

[Toerag]

More later maybe.

 

....and here it is! Steve C - You say that a 2 fish limit is 'a bit rich'. Do you not remember the days of the '2 fish rule' when charterboats were effectively rod & line commercials and sold the catch? How much can an angler catch before his 'fish for personal consumption' becomes 'fish for selling to the local pub' ? 2 bass, 2 turbot, 2 brill, 2 cod, 2 ray, 2 pollack and 2 black bream sounds like plenty enough for me, especially as you can't really freeze the fish once it's been sat on ice for 3 or 5 days. The nub of the proposals is that most of the UK charterboats sold their commercial licenses for a quick buck when they realised that selling fish wasn't worth the hassle for the small amounts. Any Charter skipper who feels like these bag limits for their 'recreational angler' punters are restrictive can simply go and buy themselves a commercial license. OK, so it'll cost them £30k or more, but hey, licenses only ever appreciate in value (more than most investments at the moment!).

 

I know that not all anglers (especially those on here) keep all their fish, however for every educated conservationist angler there are a lot of numpties who are happy to flog their catch to the local pub or restaurant. We all know it goes on, and how hard it is to catch the culprits, but it DOES happen, and only bag limits, bans or close seasons will prevent that. Lets face it, the only reason to fish for flatfish is to catch them to sell or eat, and once you know that they fetch £5/lb+ and the 5lber you just caught is worth £25+ it becomes very tempting to 'fish for the wallet' rather than the family. Angling pressure IS having an effect on stocks, ask an Guernsey or Alderney local about what happens to bass marks when they get discovered - lots of big bass to start with, then gradually fewer and smaller fish until they're wiped out. These are rod & line bass marks, reefs and banks that are impossible to trawl or net, the damage has been done by anglers, both recreational and commercial. In the case of the flatty banks, as Chappers stated it is the sheer weight of numbers now that's crippling the fishery. Charterboats on the banks just mean that they can't be trawled in the day, but they certainly get trawled at night so that's not really an excuse for the commercials to use. Commercial pressure has remained constant or declined on these banks, but the angling pressure has increased drastically.

 

If anyone wants a bit of evidence, then ask Colin Dukes (Smuggler V) to show you the pictures that were on his deepsea.co.uk pages last year of the deck of his boat paved with turbot. Not specific to this discussion, but Geordie Dickinson has been advertising 18hour ling trips recently. Even allowing for, say, 8 hours steaming time, that's still 10 hours of fishing, and you WILL catch commercial quantities of ling in 10 hours. OK, it will be excellent sport, but what will his punters do with 1000lb of ling and the odd pollack, cod & conger (what he advertises his fish hold capacity as)?

[sam-cox]

Not my area, but if it was the Thames Estuary I would want zero commercial activity in the area that I was restricted by bag limits.

[Jaffa]

They say they are estimating that but no-one has any idea where these figures have come from. Note that the consultation says that they "catch" significant quantities of fish. no word on what they land and what is kept. From talking to some of the skippers, they do not keep very many fish at all compared to what is caught. They also have a much larger minimum size than the legal 28cm, anglers wouldn't keep many flatties under about 3-4lb which is a darn sight bigger than 28cm

 

Thanks for that Andy. I have done the same kind of "back of a fag packet" calculations as Toerag, and come to similar conclusions, but i guess it will depend on what is actually retained as you say.

 

How are the local fisheries guys to know for sure though? even if most turbot are returned it would appear that UK charters have at least the potential to effect local stocks? ( given the recorded UK commercial catch from the entire English Channel is about 100 tonnes, perhaps even a wider effect, at least for Turbot anyway?) .

 

If they did implement it, could they enforce it effectively do you think?

 

If it was implemented would the UK charters reduce the number of visits to Guernsey and hurt local trade?

[FishingGuernsey]

Read the report - 356 boat days fished in 2004, and there were a LOT more done in 2005 & 2006. Lets say that 1/2 of these were for flatties (a low estimate as that's what everyone advertises the main quarry as). Lets say each boat has an average of 8 anglers, and they catch the proposed bag limit of 2 turbot, at an average of 5lb each fish, so 5kg in total per rod.

178daysx8 rodsx5kg

=7120kg

Seven tonnes of turbot alone, and thats assuming the bag limit is adhered to. You can see where they're coming from. Most posters on here may not be aware that the Guernsey & Alderney commercial fleet is not particularly big. You have about 6 fish trawlers, and all but 2 of those are under 40ft. Apart from flats & rays on the banks there actually isn't much for them to trawl for, we don't get prawns or cod & whiting much. Commercial effort HAS been reduced by forcing the large French & UK beam trawlers outside the 12 mile limit, hence the relatively plentiful small flatties, however the bigger ones are not in the numbers that there used to be, much in the same manner as the bass situation. More later maybe.

 

 

 

Sorry Toerag but those figures are not correct. the bag limit is per trip so on a 3 day trip (the average length) you get to keep 2 flatties. I reckon if you divide your figure by 3 (call it 2400kg) then it will be closer to the mark of what can be had with the bag limits in place.

 

 

 

From what I have heard and seen, the flatties are now on the banks in numbers with some boats catching (not keeping!!) up to 30 flats a day. IMO, they were all late this year with the sandeel shortage which now seems to be recovering after the long winter.

[chappers]

I would agree with that, I too originally mis-read the document and assumed it would be two fish per day, bag limits on a per trip basis are unrealistic adeclartion of catch at the end of the day would be a far more sensible way forward with say each angler being issued with a tag, say like they do with a lot of fishing in the USA, whereby your tag must be filled in upon immediate capture of any retained fish. In some states of the USA you must carry a tag and fill it in when you retain a fish and if you are caught with a fish on board and you haven't filled in your tag you are fined to the same degree as catching over your limit. I have quite a bit of experience of fishing in Oregon and you are frequently pulled over and people are regularly fined for simply not filling in their tags immediately. If they are serious about implementing bag limits they need to put in place an effective policing of the rules, with sensible limits.

[AlderneyBassman]

Having read the proposals I notice that it constantly refers to charter boats visiting Alderney.

But towards the end it says

 

"The Department has invited Alderney and Sark to consider implementing similar restrictions in their territorial waters"

 

So is this just a Guernsey law which they are hoping Alderney will go along with?

 

If Alderney States decide not to oblige we'll be busier than ever

[Steve Coppolo]

Toerag and Chappers.

With respect , you are both missing my point.

 

There are some good arguments for bag limits, and there's proof that they can work well. But only alongside restrictions on commercial activity. The striped bass fishery has been mentioned several times, but do you think that it has become so successful just through bag limits imposed on anglers?

 

What we've got to be very careful of is losing our rights as anglers. Bag limits, licences, no take zones, etc, they are all on the horizon. I think they should be negotiated, not given away. Once those rights are gone, they are gone. Then we have nothing left to negotiate with.

 

What do you think would best benefit the channel islands, given that the fishing available seem to be generating a fair bit of revenue at the moment? 1). A two fish limit for anglers while commercial fishing carries on unrestricted? 2). A bag limit for anglers with restrictions on commercial fishing? 3). Things stay as they are?

 

Which option do you think visiting anglers would like to see in place?

 

This proposal is nothing to do with conservation. If the SFC, or whoever they are in the CI, do the usual SFC thing and push it through because it benefits commercial fishermen, then there should be an immediate angling boycott on the channel islands. No one really wants to see that, and that's why it's so important to make our views known. We've all got to be very vocal on this issue because it affects us all. To use a phrase much abused by commercial fishermen over the last year or two, this is the thin end of the wedge!

Edited August 31, 2006 by Steve Coppolo

[Toerag]

Ooops, yes Andy, I got my sums wrong. However, it does go to show what is currently being taken out of the fishery.

ABM - Alderney & Sark will be affected regardless because once you go outside the 3 mile limit the waters are Bailiwick ones.

Steve - You agree to bag limits as long as commercial fishing is restricted - I reiterate my point, when does 'keeping fish for personal consumption' become 'keeping fish for sale'?? 'Anglers' are illegally fishing commercially, anyone fishing for 'personal consumption' shouldn't be worried about bag limits surely?

And again, it IS the anglers that are doing the damage, unless you have a better idea of why the stocks are dropping. The commercial guys were complaining last winter before this year's poor season, and 2 of the most efficient Alderney commercial longliners threw in the towel then as well. The whole thing only really kicked off this year because of anglers complaining about the hammering the bass stocks were taking.

[chappers]

Steve I totally agree that the commercial sector need to also be restricted and at least kept in check and held at present levels, the fishery in question is one that at its present level is probably just about holding its own. But whilst there has been little or no increase in pressure form the commercial sector there has been a marked increase from charter boats fishing the waters. I agree that we need to fight our corner and try to ensure that we come out of this with a workable solution, and two fish per trip is not acceptable whilst the commercials go un checked, we however must realise that the days of bag limits will become a thing of the future.

 

With regards to say the striped bass stocks, these were emergency measures and came into force after a total moretoreum on landing of striped bass and we should be forsighted enough to put measures in place before we end up with a period of time when we may not be able to keep any fish at all.