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taking a dunk


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#1 jonsok1

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Posted 13 October 2006 - 11:09 AM

with all the talk of waders, drysuits, wetsuits, which is best etc....started me thinking as a new kayaker (6 months) i have yet to take a dunking , not even come close yet, now i mainly launch from brixham harbour or livermead which depending on the wind direction are sheltered launch sites, my point , when are you likely to be at risk of taking a dunk , is it at launch or landing or are you likely to get dunked by a big wave while out fishing, i have been out off berryhead and had a big power boat came within 100 yards , now that was a bit. scary but i never felt like i was going to capsize.

can the more experienced out there who have taken a dunk give us there experiences, this i think will help us less experienced to know what to look out for
:thumbs:

#2 Martin Hurst

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Posted 13 October 2006 - 11:28 AM

like you I never took a dunk in my first year and never looked likely too. Early this year I came in through the surf , bided my time between breakers and followed one in succesfully. Was just about to get out feeling pleased with myself when I was hit from behind and tipped out , all to the amusement of the packed beer garden adjacent to the beach :angry:
Ok Prowler 13

#3 YakDiver

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Posted 13 October 2006 - 12:05 PM

twice on launching 2 minutes apart :(
never while at sea
Lat/Long :- N5058.366 W00126.468

I must go down to the sea again
To the lonely sea and sky
I left my shoes and socks there
I wonder if they're dry?

#4 jonnyboy

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Posted 13 October 2006 - 12:39 PM

My dunkings have always been during launch and landing and yes, always when the beach or slipway is packed full of holidaymakers :wallbash:
Location: Weymouth, Dorset
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#5 paintfly

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Posted 13 October 2006 - 04:17 PM

My dunkings have always been during launch and landing and yes, always when the beach or slipway is packed full of holidaymakers :wallbash:


Ditto, launch and landing through surf have been the only times I've actually taken a bath, which might lead one to suppose that because you're so close to the beach, gettng wet is only a matter of inconvenience rather than a serious threat. But my worst moments have always had something to do with anchoring: not paying out enough warp and getting caught out by a fast tide almost submerged my yak before the trolley snapped (basic novice error); and there have been a few times when trying to break the weak link on a snagged anchor, I've nearly gone over the other side when it finally gave way(Laurel & Hardy error). Then there's always the possibilty of collision with some tosser on a jetski or falling overboard during a night session while having a snooze, I'm sure there's a long list of unlikely events you'd never think could happen...Spanish Armada's another one (NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition :blink: ). Dressing for a dunking has to be the bottom line, especially in winter. :cold:

#6 Seahunter

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Posted 13 October 2006 - 06:29 PM

Having taken many tumbles, lauching, landing and recently while a few hundred yards off shore, I strongly recommend you all practice getting back on after a spill.
I think those of you who have not tried will be quite shocked at how difficult it is when you dont have your feet on the seabed.
The worst time is when there is a chop on, and every time you get back on the next wave washes you back in, you do that a couple of times and you become tired and from now on you will get very cold , quickly. if you get cold enough you will really be in trouble.
Please, :help: practice, practice practice !!! :help:

#7 overrun

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Posted 13 October 2006 - 07:05 PM

with all the talk of waders, drysuits, wetsuits, which is best etc....started me thinking as a new kayaker (6 months) i have yet to take a dunking , not even come close yet, now i mainly launch from brixham harbour or livermead which depending on the wind direction are sheltered launch sites, my point , when are you likely to be at risk of taking a dunk , is it at launch or landing or are you likely to get dunked by a big wave while out fishing, i have been out off berryhead and had a big power boat came within 100 yards , now that was a bit. scary but i never felt like i was going to capsize.

can the more experienced out there who have taken a dunk give us there experiences, this i think will help us less experienced to know what to look out for
:thumbs:


My first dunking this afternoon upon returning to the beach and sitting there like a twit hoping the next wave would push me a bit further up the beach so I wouldn't have to get my legs wet. Bow on sand and 0.5m wave from rear equals flick out the side and Kayak up side down, me nicely wet up to chest and contents of Yak deposited all over the beach, doh! Not nice in the colder months but I'll have the Dry suit on then.

Oh, and the obligatory members of the public present were suitably entertained.
2006 Launches: 8
2006 Species: 5
2007 Species: 19
2007 Launches: 42
2008 Species: 21
2008 Launches: 51
2009 Species: 24
2009 Launches: 47
2010 Launches 35
2010 Species 25
2011 Launches 23
2011 Species 20

#8 jonsok1

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Posted 13 October 2006 - 10:28 PM

For the new guy's on here enjoying thier first winter in the yak

MANY ARE COLD BUT FEW ARE FROZEN

Talking about immersion in cold water and Hypothermia, here are a few notes that I teach on my master diver / dive master courses - they may be helpfull to some.
IMMERSION HYPOTHERMIA

Why is hypothermia dangerous?

Hypothermia may be mild, moderate, or severe. The presentation may range from shivering and piloerection ("goosebumps"), to profound confusion, irreversible coma and death. Significant hypothermia begins at temperatures of 95 degrees F (35 degrees C) core temperature and below. The lowering of the body temperature occurs as the body is robbed of heat by the surroundings. Water conducts body heat away up to 26 times faster than air of the same temperature. Normal body functions slow down with decreasing heart rate, decreasing respiratory and metabolic rate. Thinking is impaired and speech becomes confused. Reflexes are slowed and muscles become stiff and unusable. Then dangerous life-threatening heart rhythms develop which are hard to reverse.

WHAT'S A KEY CONCEPT IN HEAT TRANSFER?

The complex science of heat transfer can be simply summed up: heat energy flows naturally in only one direction, from areas of higher temperature to lower temperature. When the difference is large, more heat flows than when it is small. Temperature differences called gradients exist all over your body. Two are important to understanding heat loss in the cold. One is between your insides and your skin, called your core-to-skin gradient. The other is between your skin and the outside environment, called the skin-to-environment gradient. Here is where thermoregulation gets really interesting.

WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN SKIN TEMPERATURE AND CORE TEMPERATURE

Your skin temperature is not 98.6 degrees F (37 degrees C). That familiar number is the average temperature of your insides called your core. Core temperature drops a degree or two in early morning and rises three to six degrees during exercise. Healthy core temperature maintains a narrow range. Skin is cooler and marvelously changeable. In the cold, skin temperature quickly drops to that of the surrounding air or water, which is a good thing.

A skin temperature close to the surrounding temperature decreases the gradient and with it, heat loss. Two concepts follow: the surrounding temperature need not be 98.6 degrees F to be thermoneutral, and cooler skin, common to women, is an advantage in the cold to lose less core heat. Men with higher skin temperature lose more heat in the cold.
How can hypothermia victims be recognized?

SYMPTOMS AND SIGNS
1. SHIVERING
2. LOWERED BODY TEMPERATURE
3. COLD BLUE SKIN
4. SLOW HEARTBEAT
5. SLOW RESPIRATION
6. SLURRED SPEECH
7. CONFUSION
8. MUSCLE STIFFNESS
9. CARDIOPULMONARY ARREST

What can be done to assist the hypothermic victim?
TREATMENT
The basic goals of early care are to prevent cardiopulmonary arrest, stabilize the core temperature, then carefully transport the victim to definitive medical care.

1. Removethe patient from the cold environment.

2. Check the ABC's of airway adequacy, breathing and circulation. If acceptable, then we add a "D" as in ABCD: DEGREES - what is the body temperature? A low reading thermometer is commercially available (most clinical thermometers read to 94 degrees F only) and this should be part of an emergency kit. As always, if the patient is not breathing and the heart not beating, standard cardiopulmonary resuscitation (CPR) should be started immediately.

3. Prevent further heat loss. This is done by removing wet clothing, gentle drying of the skin, remove or cut off suits, covering the high heat loss areas of the body, e.g., the head and neck (accounts for 50% of the heat loss), the lateral thorax and groin areas.

4. Gentle handling is a must. As the body rewarms it gets colder first for a short time; this is known as afterdrop.

Why is 'afterdrop' so dangerous?
During this period the heart is very vulnerable to developing life threatening rhythm disturbances. Immediately after rescue the victim should be removed horizontally from the water and kept that way. A litter or stretcher should be used to carry the victim since unnecessary exercising, jumping, climbing or exertion may trigger the heart rhythm disturbance.
Victims may deny they are ill and want to decline medical care, or want to climb into ambulances or helicopters on their own. Remember their judgement may be clouded, and yours should prevail. Afterdrop can be worsened by certain types of "field treatments", such as a cigarette, a hot cup of coffee and a drink of alcohol, all time-honored treatments. These all prolong the afterdrop and may not help the hypothermic victim recover. They should not be given to hypothermic individuals with core temperatures below 95 degrees F.
Thermal Protection and Hypothermia Considerations

The study of immersion hypothermia has increased survivability in downed pilots and aircrew, shipwreck victims, sport scuba enthusiasts, and near-drowned victims.

Where does the body lose heat ?
 Head, neck, axilla, and inguinal region, for the most part
 50 % lost from the head and neck alone heat flux across the skull, blood vessels close to surface
 Remember children lose heat quicker because of ratio of body mass to skin surface

How does the body lose heat ?
 Conduction-the transfer of heat by direct contact with water, air or ground
 Convection-the transfer of heat by air or water that moves away
 Radiation-the transfer of energy by non-particulate means, heat loss from an unprotected head
 Evaporation conversion of water droplets (sweat) Into water vapor, thereby absorbing calories of heat

How do we protect these heat-loss areas?
 Create a micro-climate around body with insulators
 Waders, gloves, hats, boots, shoes
 Wet suits made of closed cell neoprene
 Dry Suits and under garments
 Clothing In layers, virtues are loose fitting, air trapping, no ligatures, belts, zippers
 Head coverings

What are some of the factors affecting how fast we lose heat?
 Water Temperature
 Outside Air Temperature (OAT)
 Wind, wind-chill
 Wave action, sea state
 Wet clothes versus dry (5 times greater loss)
 Body habitus
 Sexual differences
 Age
 Air versus water (water 25 times greater loss)
 Activity level, breathing rate
 Fear, panic
 Tachycardia
 Fight or flight

What are some medications and conditions that increase heat loss?
 Beta blockers
 Phenothiazines
 Benzodiazepines
 Barbiturates
 Effect of alcohol
 Cigarettes
When I dive in a dry suit I use a wooly Bugger undersuit, this offers maximum thermal protection in tempretures from 0 deg C. When I kayak in winter I use a two piece combination suite consiting of Breathable waders with a dry cag top. Underneath I use a base layer of "shark skin" a suit desinged with thermal properties suiatable for diving in tropical waters - covered by one or two layers of thermal garments (depending on the day) On my head I use a thermal / fleece beanie.
BTW - Neupreen waders are great for winter Kyaking - dont bellive all the crap you get fed about drownings etc, etc - if you dont bellieve me - jump into a pool and test it for yourself.............................






wow what a reply, that sort of scares me and educates me all in one go :yeah:
so it seems you are more likely to get wet launching or returning, and if you do something stupid while out.
thanks ,my mind is at ease, just don't take anything for granted and be careful,

#9 Seahunter

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Posted 14 October 2006 - 06:36 PM

Hey Captainsorgan, useful info but on the chest wader thing at the end. How much weight in water do you think the average chest waiders hold , when you try and climb out of the pool you have just jumped into, and gravity takes over?
Or indeed try and climb back onto your sit on kayak!!
Quite a lot me thinks!!! :fish:

#10 Somerset in Jersey

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Posted 14 October 2006 - 10:35 PM

following on from the most usefull tips and advice my wife has just started to take the RYA level 2 power boat course, and we have now received a booklet from the RNLI, titled "Sea Safety the complete guide" It includes a cd with all the information and games and practice on every stage from navigation to first aid. A must for all. seen a lot but can now say the RNLI have now done the dogs cahonas. Every one get one. Have been going through the Cardinal Marks for a revise and its good.

Well done RNLI for releasing such a great cd and pacage.