Petition the PM, on-line in 2 mins, to save the fish stocks

[wurzel]

Hi. I dont have anything against Wurzel for wanting to protect his livelihood (or for any other reason for that matter, after all, I dont know the guy), I just think that he isnt seeing the bigger picture. And there is very good scientific evidence to suggest that water temperatures do have an effect, so I take that point completely. But there is also FANTASTIC evidence to show that NTZ's work, incredibly well and quicker than even the scientists expected. Have a look here:-

http://www.bbc.co.uk/devon/outdoors/nature...lundy_ban.shtml

The reason that I keep using BBC sources for this info is that they are considered to be unbiased, or if anything, biased towards commercial fisherman sustaining their livelihoods, which is correct and how it should be. Its just that to sustain a livelihood which is centered around catching fish, you need the FISH!!!!

 

 

Hello Fishyrob

I'll start with this post.

 

Lundy island might be good for lobsters but if you look at this link (if it works) you will see that not every thing is so rosy and I bet if there were cod there they also would have disappeared.

There are already 320 no take zones in the north sea, they are called gas and oil rigs all with exclusion zones around them

 

http://www.aquariauk.com/research13.html

[wurzel]

Abnsolutely. But this is the whole point of the petition. The government are not listening to their scientists advice, otherwise we would be currently enjoying NTZ's in the North sea right now, as recommended by the scientists, wouldnt we...? The BBC report I linked to somewhere up above is from 2004. In two years, the scientists have still been ignored. With each year of inactivity, the stocks plunge stil lower.Going to have to do another comparison now. Again when I was a lad, if you caught a bass, regardless of size, it was an event to get excited about. Now, you can wlk across the schoolies in some of the Essex estuaries (I have had 30 bass and two carp in a single session on one paticular underated Essex estuary) Why is this? Could it be that the nursery areas were established? Or is it just a coincidence? I would say that it is the former, although even here not all commercials observe the nursery laws, as anybody who has fished or taken a boat trip through the langstone harbour entrance will testify. And all that is being asked for here is the same, areas where the cod can spawn and perhaps increase. Every year up the East coast in the spring there is a good run of undersized codling. Every year I see angling writers writing that this bodes well for the future. And every following Autumn I see the same writers grumbling about the poor state of the cod fishing. So, what happens to these codling? Cant imagine the seals eat them all. The anglers definately dont catch them all. Could it be that they get hammered, either directly or as by (dead) catch, by commercial fisherman? If you ever come to Brighton, have a look in the Brighton Angler (Tackle shop) and you can see truly staggering pictures of enormous cod caught from Dungeness beach. Pictures of thirty cod to a group of three anglers, many of thm being big doubles, all from the late sixties and early seventies. Now do a search for cod catches on Dungeness. Do you see anybody catching ten big cod from the beach anymore? To say that fish stocks are in good health, and that Wurzels grandson will inheri a cod fishery that he can actually make a living out of, is pure fantasy. You dont need a scientist, you just need to go fishing to see that stocks of many fish are a shadow of their former self. So, the evidence isnt just from scientists, it is from every day observation. How many of you commercial boys are fishing such healthy fish stocks that you are about to upgrade your Porsche to a Ferrari? Or is it a case of wondering if there will be enough in the nets to cover the mortgage this month? Am I the only person that can see if commercial fisherman wish to continue their trade, and ean money from it, they have to allow the fish stocks to recover. PLEASE dont get the idea that I am anti-commercials. The first job I ever applied for was on a trawler, but why are all the commercials ignoring the point. NO FISH = NO COMMERCIAL FISHING. Yes or no? All you commercial boys should be signing the petition, not fighting it, otherwise you will be committing yourselfs to permanent bans regardless. In thirty years the cod stocks have been fished to dangerousley low levels. Commercial fisherman have been around since the beggining of mankind. Dont let your fear of change and regulation deny future generations this opportunity.

 

Now for this post

 

 

So you admit that when you was a lad it was rare to catch bass, now it's hard not to. so can't you see that what is good for bass is not good for Cod? if the sea warms up any more I doubt my grand son will ever see a cod, all the bans and ntz's won't make the slightest difference. he'll probably be supplying fish and chip shops with fillets of bass. The nursery areas have a tiny effect compared to very mild winters.

I agree there is usually a run of small codling inshore, it is their nursery area after all, the bigger fish just don't seem happy to come inshore these days, we catch some offshore, and every time there is a colder period there seems to be more of them, but as you say not a patch on what we used to catch 20 years ago.

Although I sense a change this year, with signs of more cod showing, whether it's just a blip after a run of very cold northerly winds last spring, perhaps thing are starting to change back again, only time will tell.

It's all cycles, you mention the big cod caught from Dungeness beach during the 60 and 70's why did they not catch them during the 40 and 50's?

I do find the fish stocks I fish for are generally in good health, we have no trouble making a living from catching Dover soles, bass and skate, the few cod we catch are usually caught while fishing for other species.

I am not going to go into what I earn on here, I will say that if I don't get to sea from now till march, when the spring sole fishery starts, I won't starve, I am quite happy with the Cherokee Jeep thanks, and my son at 25 is looking to buy a house, his 5 th house, so no we are not looking in the nets wondering if there is enough to cover the mortgage , on the house or the boat. I had £35 in the bank when I managed to pursued the bank to lend me the money for my first boat, so it is fair to say that every thing I own has come from the sea.

So now am I a commercial fisherman struggling to find fish?

I don't know of any commercial fishermen that are.

I suppose if I was still long lining for cod, as I was 25 years ago I would have gone bust a long time ago.

Sill got the long lines, cause ya never know, and nor do most scientists.

 

over to you.

[Trubshaw]

Now for this post

So you admit that when you was a lad it was rare to catch bass, now it's hard not to. so can't you see that what is good for bass is not good for Cod? if the sea warms up any more I doubt my grand son will ever see a cod, all the bans and ntz's won't make the slightest difference. he'll probably be supplying fish and chip shops with fillets of bass. The nursery areas have a tiny effect compared to very mild winters.

I agree there is usually a run of small codling inshore, it is their nursery area after all, the bigger fish just don't seem happy to come inshore these days, we catch some offshore, and every time there is a colder period there seems to be more of them, but as you say not a patch on what we used to catch 20 years ago.

Although I sense a change this year, with signs of more cod showing, whether it's just a blip after a run of very cold northerly winds last spring, perhaps thing are starting to change back again, only time will tell.

It's all cycles, you mention the big cod caught from Dungeness beach during the 60 and 70's why did they not catch them during the 40 and 50's?

I do find the fish stocks I fish for are generally in good health, we have no trouble making a living from catching Dover soles, bass and skate, the few cod we catch are usually caught while fishing for other species.

I am not going to go into what I earn on here, I will say that if I don't get to sea from now till march, when the spring sole fishery starts, I won't starve, I am quite happy with the Cherokee Jeep thanks, and my son at 25 is looking to buy a house, his 5 th house, so no we are not looking in the nets wondering if there is enough to cover the mortgage , on the house or the boat. I had £35 in the bank when I managed to pursued the bank to lend me the money for my first boat, so it is fair to say that every thing I own has come from the sea.

So now am I a commercial fisherman struggling to find fish?

I don't know of any commercial fishermen that are.

I suppose if I was still long lining for cod, as I was 25 years ago I would have gone bust a long time ago.

Sill got the long lines, cause ya never know, and nor do most scientists.

 

over to you.

 

I am the individual who posted the petition!

 

1. I am not trying to start a war against trawlermen.

 

2. The proposal is for the good of all.

 

3. It will help to ensure the future of all species of fish.

 

4. Specific species bans do not work due to the by-catch that are returned dead to the sea.

 

5. I proposed that AREAs of the sea should be closed for ten years, not the whole of the UK waters, to allow stocks to recover.

 

6. If we all continue to dither as has been the case for so long now, the sea bed, which is from where all sea life originates, and is ultimately sustained from will be so barren, due to bottom trawls scraping it for species they are allowed to catch under the present rules, there will be no fish of any sort left at all.

 

One does not need to be a scientist to see that.

 

By setting aside areas where nature is undisturbed for a reasonable period of time , and I don't mean a couple of square miles things can recover.

 

It is everyone's future that is put at risk if sacrifices are not made now.

[fishyrob]

Hello Fishyrob

I'll start with this post.

 

Lundy island might be good for lobsters but if you look at this link (if it works) you will see that not every thing is so rosy and I bet if there were cod there they also would have disappeared.

There are already 320 no take zones in the north sea, they are called gas and oil rigs all with exclusion zones around them

 

http://www.aquariauk.com/research13.html

 

What are you like. Determined not to post again, you go all civil and educated on me. So I cant really not post, can I?

 

Interesting, very interesting, the information about Lundy. It would seem to suggest environmental factors are having an effect, although I'm not sure that Red Band fish were ever designed to live in our seas. And everybody is aware I think that commercial fishing is only one of the factors reducing the fish stocks, though a very significant one. But to focus on Lundy only would be a mistake. I attach a table, which is a summary of various NTZ experiments around the world. NTZ's work. I dont think anybody could say that establishing a NTZ is detrimental to shellfish and finned fish populations, could they? And a consistent theme is that the areas around the NTZ increase yields also.

 

So, onwards. Whats good for bass is not good for cod. Think you are suggesting warmer seas means more bass. But bass were thick on the ground at the turn of the last century, when the thames used to freeze and that kind of thing, so I'm not sure your suggestion has validity.

 

The reason that the big hauls of cod didnt happen before the 60's, is simple. Les Moncrieff hadnt shown the world how to cast the 100 yards needed to get amongst the shoals there. Nowadays few anglers cant cast 100 yards. Its just that the shoals arent there anymore. Instead there are odd fish to very lucky anglers.

 

Being from Essex originally myself, I am aware that the skate fishery would seem to be changing on your patch of coast. Once a spring fish, it is not impossible to find large shoals all through the year, and the LSD population has exploded. But, could it be that all of these changes are due to the demise of cod. As there is less pressure on foodstocks from one species, another species comes in to exploit the situation. The timings would back this idea. You changed from Cod 25 years ago, and this is when the skate seemed to start changing their habits. Both fish share similar diets, crabs, small fish and prawns. And bass are on the up, but the average size is very much down. Leave that one to the scientists to explain. But as for the sole, tell me your catches have gone up over the last ten years? Bet you cant. If your really saying fish stocks are healthy and not in decline, post your catches for the last ten years, or send them to me, and I will graph them up for you. That would be scientific evidence in itself, allowing for lost days etc.

 

I am truly happy for your wealth, and your sons success. One thing people often overlook is that commercial fishing is incredibly dangerous, and anybody who risks their life for an income, should do well from it. But I would also like to carry on with my businesses, and they are generally focused around sea fishing. Many people give up fishing the seas, because they tire of trip after trip for a couple of pouting or nothing at all. If the fish stocks around our coast regenerated, you and me will both prosper. If the fish stocks around our coasts dissapear, you and I both lose. And wouldnt it be a good buzz for you to be working those long-lines again? If you study the experiments from around the world, you can see for yourself it might not be impossible. Fish stocks increasing X 15........

[glennk]

I supported it just because Its another knock at the governements door saying hi we are anglers and we want something doing.

 

To be honest I was a big supporter of closed areas in the past but they would need to be the right areas as large parts of the north sea are a fish less desert and were even when there was plenty of fish so you must shut the right places like the 20 mile area between Whitby and Scarborough which seems to be a nursery bed for juvenile codling see : http://www.cefas.co.uk/FSP/publications/FS...-Project-3.pdf. However I think there is some opposition from some of the more knowledgeable people on closed areas. Not sure what people like the doc and Leon think on this matter

Edited November 24, 2006 by glennk

[ColinW]

Hello Fishyrob

I'll start with this post.

 

Lundy island might be good for lobsters but if you look at this link (if it works) you will see that not every thing is so rosy and I bet if there were cod there they also would have disappeared.

There are already 320 no take zones in the north sea, they are called gas and oil rigs all with exclusion zones around them

 

http://www.aquariauk.com/research13.html

 

Surely my eyes deceive me. Wurzel posting a link to an article by Charlesbloodyclover!

[wurzel]

Surely my eyes deceive me. Wurzel posting a link to an article by Charlesbloodyclover!

 

 

I did not notice! I wish I had known about that when I spoke to him.

[wurzel]

I am the individual who posted the petition!

 

Ahh!

 

1. I am not trying to start a war against trawlermen.

 

Well you will get one

 

2. The proposal is for the good of all.

 

Just like what banning hand guns did for gun crime

 

3. It will help to ensure the future of all species of fish.

 

Not possible

 

 

4. Specific species bans do not work due to the by-catch that are returned dead to the sea.

 

so don't ban it.

 

5. I proposed that AREAs of the sea should be closed for ten years, not the whole of the UK waters, to allow stocks to recover.

 

what all stocks! even the ones that don't need to recover?

 

6. If we all continue to dither as has been the case for so long now, the sea bed, which is from where all sea life originates, and is ultimately sustained from will be so barren, due to bottom trawls scraping it for species they are allowed to catch under the present rules, there will be no fish of any sort left at all.

 

load of rubbish!

 

One does not need to be a scientist to see that.

 

 

I bet you have never seen any thing.

 

 

 

By setting aside areas where nature is undisturbed for a reasonable period of time , and I don't mean a couple of square miles things can recover.

 

what about the 320 square miles of notake zones around all the oil and gas rigs?

 

 

It is everyone's future that is put at risk if sacrifices are not made now.

 

 

Before you go any further you need to charter a plane or ship and travel around the UK and see for your self just how much fishing is actually taking place, see how many bottom trawlers per square mile you find.

[wurzel]

What are you like. Determined not to post again, you go all civil and educated on me. So I cant really not post, can I?

 

Interesting, very interesting, the information about Lundy. It would seem to suggest environmental factors are having an effect, although I'm not sure that Red Band fish were ever designed to live in our seas. And everybody is aware I think that commercial fishing is only one of the factors reducing the fish stocks, though a very significant one. But to focus on Lundy only would be a mistake. I attach a table, which is a summary of various NTZ experiments around the world. NTZ's work. I dont think anybody could say that establishing a NTZ is detrimental to shellfish and finned fish populations, could they? And a consistent theme is that the areas around the NTZ increase yields also.

 

So, onwards. Whats good for bass is not good for cod. Think you are suggesting warmer seas means more bass. But bass were thick on the ground at the turn of the last century, when the thames used to freeze and that kind of thing, so I'm not sure your suggestion has validity.

 

The reason that the big hauls of cod didnt happen before the 60's, is simple. Les Moncrieff hadnt shown the world how to cast the 100 yards needed to get amongst the shoals there. Nowadays few anglers cant cast 100 yards. Its just that the shoals arent there anymore. Instead there are odd fish to very lucky anglers.

 

Being from Essex originally myself, I am aware that the skate fishery would seem to be changing on your patch of coast. Once a spring fish, it is not impossible to find large shoals all through the year, and the LSD population has exploded. But, could it be that all of these changes are due to the demise of cod. As there is less pressure on foodstocks from one species, another species comes in to exploit the situation. The timings would back this idea. You changed from Cod 25 years ago, and this is when the skate seemed to start changing their habits. Both fish share similar diets, crabs, small fish and prawns. And bass are on the up, but the average size is very much down. Leave that one to the scientists to explain. But as for the sole, tell me your catches have gone up over the last ten years? Bet you cant. If your really saying fish stocks are healthy and not in decline, post your catches for the last ten years, or send them to me, and I will graph them up for you. That would be scientific evidence in itself, allowing for lost days etc.

 

I am truly happy for your wealth, and your sons success. One thing people often overlook is that commercial fishing is incredibly dangerous, and anybody who risks their life for an income, should do well from it. But I would also like to carry on with my businesses, and they are generally focused around sea fishing. Many people give up fishing the seas, because they tire of trip after trip for a couple of pouting or nothing at all. If the fish stocks around our coast regenerated, you and me will both prosper. If the fish stocks around our coasts dissapear, you and I both lose. And wouldnt it be a good buzz for you to be working those long-lines again? If you study the experiments from around the world, you can see for yourself it might not be impossible. Fish stocks increasing X 15........

 

Hello Fishrob

 

No doubt resident species in ntz would do better, only if conditions are right for them like the red fish of Lundy if not they will still diserppear.

 

The sole catches have more or less stayed the same. we could go on for ever, I have over ten years ( before that were pinched)of wheel house logs that you are welcome to look at, have a day at sea with us and read them. pm me.

[wurzel]

So charter skippers don't then wurzel.

 

I was at meeting last week and the commercials were in the usaul denial mode. I knew one guy well as he lives in my village, He now fishes for Buckies (whelks)

 

I asked him Why he doesn't fish his salmon nets anymore, Why he doesn't put 5 miles of skate nets outanymore, and why doesn't he put the nets out for the cod that used to give him weekend beer money.

 

He reluctantly admitted he couldn't make any of it pay because the fish just aren't there

 

 

Hello Ian

 

Been meaning to get back to you.

 

No most charter skippers don't or aren't, I don't mean this nasty like, but most are just anglers with a boat.

They don't understand the ground any thing like a commercial fisherman does.

 

You tell your mate I said" when there are loads of fish there are plenty who fish, when things get a little tight there are only fishermen left."