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AN ADVERT IN A NATIONAL NEWSPAPER TO LET ANGLERS KNOW WHATS GOING ON BEHIND THE SCENCES


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#21 Leon Roskilly

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Posted 26 December 2006 - 01:26 PM

The thing is that all these consultations have been wide open for anyone to respond to, and for anyone to attend the regional forums etc, or to request meetings with the teams responsible.

But whilst local branches of Wildlife Trusts, environmental NGOs, even commercial fishermen, have taken the time to read and analyse the proposals, submit responses, and indeed get along to the open meetings, relatively few from the RSA sector have made the effort to follow the various consultations or to get involved.

It's ironic that that those who have in the past been willing to leave it all up to others, now turn on the few that have bothered.

(I doubt that many who might have been tempted to get involved in future will bother, having seen the criticisim heaped upon those that have. Nothing specific, just vague rumblings and ramblings reeking of paranoia).

If you want to ensure your views are directly taken into account in future, you are going to have to get involved in the work, read and understand the proposals, assess the likely impact, put in well-argued responses, not only putting forward your point of view, but understanding and countering the arguments of those whose have different ideas, and making time to get along to those meetings.

Nobody told you about them?

Probably.

But for those who want to keep an eye out, there's plenty of information on the DEFRA website ( see http://www.defra.gov...ult/current.htm ) and the SACN website, linking to pages giving details of proposals, how to respond, where the meetings will be etc.

Ask to be put on DEFRA's mailing list so that you get details of future proposals affecting fisheries, and the marine bill proposals, together with notices of regional meetings held to discuss all of the issues.

And we have put in quite a bit of effort, persuading DEFRA to target information not just at NGOs and commercial fishing organisations and businesses, but at fishing clubs, associations and businesses etc, so a lot more people should be aware in future.

Another way of recieving information about proposals, forums and workshops etc is to get on the mailing list of the Coastal Management for Sustainability (CMS) http://www.coastms.co.uk/

You can get on their list by going here:

http://www.coastms.c..... log-off.html

A lot of what you are sent might not at first look seem relevant (eg flood defence etc), but a lot is.

Some of the conferences need to be paid for unfortunately, but it's often at these conferences that ideas are floated and projects are begun which will impact on angling, and when no on goes along from angling because of the cost, it's often difficult to get on the bandwaggon later, or to change the course that everyone is already set upon, and we see that particularly with regard to Marine Protected Areas.

But then again, there are public consultations and conferences which are free, and where ideas are chewed over and generated, and opinions formed, and its important that anglers and angling organisations get people along to them.

It's not all about 2 or 3 people getting together with a handful of civil servants and secretly deciding things, (I suspect many would be surprised at just how many anglers do get involved).

But about joining in public debates that direct the way that DEFRA will move in future, and that is debates with a wide variety of stakeholders with different agendas some who will support the needs of RSA, others who want to see our activities more closely regulated and restricted where that is seen to have an adverse environmental effect, however spurios the argument - if nobody is around to argue against them, then the civil servants and politicians wil listen only to them).

Charging users - commercial fishermen and anglers for management of marine resources for their benefits.

Establishing Marine Protected Areas - Very popular with green organisations and NGOs.

Placing bag limits on anglers, tightening down on the take from commercial fishing - again very much driven by NGOs, some operating internationally.

Leave it up to others, depend on the few who can be bothered to get involved, and you know what happens.


The report that started this thread was produced by Hull University, at the request of DEFRA.

As far as I'm aware, no angling organisations were consulted or asked for their views.

For those who have taken the trouble to read it, very little of it covers angling, addressing all unlicensed activity that impacts on marine biodiversity, and makes recommendations

But that report will feed into the Marine Bill white paper, and if you don't like what the white paper contains, there will be further chances to make representations, particularly to your members of parliament etc, asking them speak on the proposals when they are put before the house, not just those that you don't like, but the kind of things that you want to see in their, that will make your angling prospects better in future, allowing the UK to obtain maximum economic and social benefit from propoer management of our national Recreational Sea Fishereis, whether that be for bass or for cod or ..................

see http://www.defra.gov...cy/marine-bill/

Edited by Leon Roskilly, 26 December 2006 - 01:35 PM.

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#22 Leon Roskilly

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Posted 26 December 2006 - 04:33 PM

It could infact work out worse for anglerís compared with no one having bothered in the first place. We could in reality end up being restricted where we can fish, have bag limits and have the pleasure of putting our hands in our pockets to pay for licences.



Sam, that's another one of those things that some people choose to believe that probably couldn't be further from the truth.

Angling Licenses, Bag Limits, Marine Protected Areas.

These are things that are being introduced all around the world.

Those that believe that all we had to do in the UK was to keep quiet, not complain, not ask for changes to fisheries management that could go some way to restoring our Recreational Sea Fisheries, and such things would pass us by, are the ones living in cloud-cuckoo land!

What we have to do is recognise that the world is changing, that things are going to be different in future, that the only way to ensure that we aren't impacted as badly as we could be, in fact take advantage of change and make what we have tomorrow better than what we have today.

That means taking heads out of the sand, seeing what is changing and why, and who is truly driving that, and getting involved, not just nationally, but regionally and locally.

Not leaving it up to others and criticisng their efforts, but taking some responsibility.

Finding out what is going on, not just in DEFRA but within your own SFC.

Bag Limits - DEFRA have asked SFCs to look at implementing them, anglers need to go along to SFC meetings and if bag limits can't be halted, ensure that they are part of a package of conservation measures that will have real benefits for the stock. Work with you RSA reps, it was hard the hard work of 'the few' that got them there, now they need the committed support of all anglers in the diostrict if they are to make any difference.

Licenses - not much that can be done until some concrete proposals are put forward (at the last meeting I went to with DEFRA where the subject came up they said that they appreciated this was very contentious and that if anglers were to be asked to contribute towards the management of our Recreational Sea Fisheries, DEFRA first had to deliver a better experience for anglers (access to more and bigger fish!), and plough back monies raised into maintaining and improving the angling experience.

Anglers need to ensure that if licenses are imposed (and that isn't sure yet), that DEFRA/the Government are held to that.


Marine Protected Areas - These are going to have to be challenged area by area, proposal by proposal, to ensure that angling doesn't get a rough deal. That means having strong local clubs and angling associations, divisions, federations etc, whilst maintaining that they should only affect anglers if absolutely necessary, not purely for any green political dogma.

That all needs a lot of people working together to make the point, not just leaving things to a few to carry the can.

Those who haven't beenprepared to get involved are much more guilty than those who have, 'the few' who have done the best they can with what they have, and haven't been able to delivered perfect solutions in the face of growing forces from outside.

Edited by Leon Roskilly, 26 December 2006 - 04:34 PM.

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#23 glennk

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Posted 26 December 2006 - 04:34 PM

Well I certainly know what I don't want to see. I don't want to see the words bag limits written in a Recreational sea anglers strategy which is to be passed in 3 months time. I don't want to see the words angling licence in there. I don't want to see the words "anglers have the potential to have a large impact on stocks" in there.

I have been told that only 1 person representing sea anglers presented a counter argument to this at the last meeting.

What I would like sea angling representatives to do is at the start of the next meeting with DEFRA make it clear which organisation they represent, give the number of members that organisation has, and give details of how many of these members have been consulted on the issues of bag limits and licences and what percentage of the membership agree with these proposals.

Just out of interest what percentage of sacn members are in favour of bag limits and licences ?

Edited by glennk, 26 December 2006 - 04:41 PM.


#24 Leon Roskilly

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Posted 26 December 2006 - 05:01 PM

Well I certainly know what I don't want to see. I don't want to see the words bag limits written in a Recreational sea anglers strategy which is to be passed in 3 months time. I don't want to see the words angling licence in there. I don't want to see the words "anglers have the potential to have a large impact on stocks" in there.

I have been told that only 1 person representing sea anglers presented a counter argument to this at the last meeting.

What I would like sea angling representatives to do is at the start of the next meeting with DEFRA make it clear which organisation they represent, give the number of members that organisation has, and give details of how many of these members have been consulted on the issues of bag limits and licences and what percentage of the membership agree with these proposals.



Glenn,

The strategy for the Development of Recreational Sea Angling is currently being driven by the Inshore Working Group

That is comprised not just of DEFRA and anglers, but a wide variety of stakeholders in the management of our fisheries.

Those that have attended at least one meeting are:

RSA SUBGROUP MEMBERSHIP

Member - Organisation

Chris Venmore - Shellfish Association of Great Britain (SAGB)/Devon SFC
Doug Beveridge - National Federation of Fishermenís Organisations (NFFO)
Graham Catt - Department of Culture Media & Sports (DCMS)
John Leballeur - Bass Anglers Sportfishing Society (BASS)
Leon Roskilly - Sea Anglers Conservation Network (SACN)
Mat Mander - Eastern Sea Fisheries Committee
Nigel Proctor - National Federation of Sea Anglers (NFSA)
Richard Ferre - National Federation of Sea Anglers (NFSA)
Rob Blyth-Skyrme - Natural England (NE)
Tim Dapling - Sussex Sea Fisheries Committee
Steve Colclough - Environment Agency
Mike Pawson - Cefas
Alistair McDonnell - Marine Fisheries Agency

Defra

Anthony Hynes - Coastal Waters Policy (Chair)
Nicola Clarke - Coastal Waters Policy
Erin Priddle - Coastal Waters Policy
Simon Mundy - Defra Legal


(Note: I've only attended one meeting (not the last one) as a stand in for someone else - SACN were intially denied a place)



Currently they are working together to produce a draft document that is broadly acceptable to all stakeholders, acknowledging that some issues will be particularly contentions to some sectors.

ie, the representatives of the catching sector, and to some extent the SFCs don't want to see the 'Golden Mile' in there!

The aim has always been to produce a strategy that contains what is achievable, rather than what is nice to have but impossible to deliver.

That means that some give and take has to be accepted.

At the last meeting just two angling reps were present, as were just two commercial reps.

(For any group to be effective, once numbers attending from many interests get too large, so it becomes difficult to get anywhere other than round and round in circles, so the group putting together the draft strategy is necessarily small, and the number of angling places limited).

Once a draft emerges that is acceptable to the Inshore Working Group sub committee, and DEFRA take ownership, it can be more widely distributed for comment and taking forward by DEFRA, who will then take ownership of the strategy, and implement it taking regard of the interests of all stakeholders, not just the RSA sector. We are looking at early February.


DEFRA are well aware of the number of members of each of the angling organisations that they talk to (in fact it's time that they were made aware of the current membership of SACN which has continued to grow :) ).

You asked about membership of the NFSA in a previous post.

If you look at the document produced by Hull University (regarding unlicensed activities), you will find some mention there :)



There seems to be some misapprehension that only things that anglers agree too are things that the government will move forward upon - nothing could be further from the truth, with 'angling representatives' often fighting a rearguard action and gaining concessions that wouldn't otherwise even get room on the table.

Support of the wider angling community and involvement by many more anglers is what will make the difference in just how much can be won of benefit, and how much that is possibly detrimental can be modified or defeated.

Welcome to the real world, it's not how many seem to imagine it!

Edited by Leon Roskilly, 26 December 2006 - 05:11 PM.

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#25 glennk

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Posted 26 December 2006 - 05:15 PM

Well can you please play give and take with some things a little less important than bag limits and licences, and stop buttering up the nffo by allowing them to think anglers effect fish stocks.

Do you know how many sacn members back Licences and bag limits ?

Does The NFSA know the answer in relation to their membership? I know they say they do but I'm working on the real answer and from what Ive been told so far not 1 member has been asked.

No point in asking the members of bass as its all their flaming fault anyways - but what do the members of bass think ? have they been asked ?

Have the members ever been asked or are

Richard Ferre - National Federation of Sea Anglers (NFSA)

John Leballeur - Bass Anglers Sportfishing Society (BASS)

Leon Roskilly - Sea Anglers Conservation Network (SACN)

Representing their own points of view ?

Edited by glennk, 26 December 2006 - 05:16 PM.


#26 Leon Roskilly

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Posted 26 December 2006 - 05:39 PM

Just out of interest what percentage of sacn members are in favour of bag limits and licences ?


I've no idea.

In some ways the question is meaningless because (hopefully) neither proposals for bag limits or licenses will come by themselves, but as a wider package which will include perhaps worthwhile benefits.

You might as well ask "Are you in favour of having sex?"

Before answering that you would surely want to know who or what with!

In some circumstances the idea would be totally abhorrent, in another case it could be a most attractive proposition!


What you can be assured of is that should a proposal be put forward for acceptance, it would be presented to the membership, and they would be the ones to decide whether it is accepted or not.


The current proposals for bag limits hasn't been put forward for acceptance, rather DEFRA are seeking support from the SFCs for them to be imposed.

SACN have made it clear to Ben Bradshaw and to DEFRA that the current proposals are wholly unacceptable.

You can see the position that SACN have taken on the current bag limit proposals if you look at:

http://www.sacn.org....or_Anglers.html




The 'SACN View' on licenses is much the same as when the following article was published in August 2004

http://www.anglers-n...ex.php?view=137

(Follow the interesting links!)


Licenses, Bag limits and Not Take Zones were all subjects of a recent survey undertaken by the NFSA to gauge their member's opinions.

I've seen some of the preliminary analysis, which I will go no further than describing as 'interesting' and which will probably surprise some people!!!

Edited by Leon Roskilly, 26 December 2006 - 06:11 PM.

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#27 Leon Roskilly

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Posted 26 December 2006 - 06:08 PM

Does The NFSA know the answer in relation to their membership? I know they say they do but I'm working on the real answer and from what Ive been told so far not 1 member has been asked.


Well what you have been told is absolutely wrong Glenn!!!

All members were sent a questionnaire

A substantial number of replies giving members' opinions have been received and analysed.

The cut off date for completed returns is 31st December after which the results of the survey will be available on the NFSA website at http://www.nfsa.org.uk

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#28 glennk

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Posted 26 December 2006 - 06:15 PM

I've no idea.

In some ways the question is meaningless because (hopefully) neither proposals for bag limits or licenses will come by themselves, but as a wider package which will include perhaps worthwhile benefits.

You might as well ask "Are you in favour of having sex?"

Before answering that you would surely want to know who or what with!

I some circumstances the idea would be totally abhorrent, in another case it could be a most ttractive proposition!
What you can be assured of is that should a proposal be put forward for acceptance, it would be presented to the membership, and they would be the ones to decide whether it is accepted or not.
The current proposals for bag limits hasn't been put forward for acceptance, rather DEFRA are seeking support from the SFCs for them to be imposed.

SACN have made it clear to Ben Bradshaw and to DEFRA that the current proposals are wholly unacceptable.

You can see the position that SACN have taken on the current bag limit proposals if you look at:

http://www.sacn.org....or_Anglers.html
The 'SACN View' on licenses is much the same as when the following article was published in August 2004

http://www.anglers-n...ex.php?view=137

(Follow the interesting links!)
Licenses, Bag limits and Not Take Zones were all subjects of a recent survey undertaken by the NFSA to gauge their member's opinions.

I've seen some of the preliminary analysis, which I will go no further than describing as 'interesting' and which will probably surprise some people!!!


Leon you are a master of dodging the issue. I am not interested in talking about sex or anything else for that matter.

You are not dealing with Nicola clark or Simon Munday here. Im Glenn Kilpatrick, the working class bloke you met in the Fleece in Whitby in the summer, a simple bloke who enjoys his hobbey of sea angling. NO need to dodge the questions or say they are unanswerable. we want to go fishing as we always have done. we dont want people telling defra we accept bag limits and licences - we dont.


Also Leon the individuals nfsa membership is below 5000 with the restof the 33,000 being made up of members of affiliated angling clubs - a lot of those wont even know that their club is in the nfsa. I am informed the numbers surveyed was far fewer than that. I have been asking on forums how many people in the nfsa have been asked about this. To date not 1 person has replied to say they have. I have a lot of emails from members of that organisation saying they have never been asked and are against these measures. In presenting any data from such a survey it needs to be made clear how many were asked and what percentage of the larger rsa community (estimated to be around 2 million ) that data represents. By avoiding asking north east anglers it would be easy to avoid a lot of negative answers to the licencing and bag limit issues - did they ask the north east angling clubs affiliated to the nfsa what they think of bag limits ? . IMO any data gathered by nfsa is representative of the small percentage of total anglers who pay money to this orgainisation and unless all were consulted it will represent even less. Can you point me to a link to this nfsa survey or is it like every thing else to do with nfsa - hidden away from view ?

Edited by glennk, 26 December 2006 - 06:38 PM.


#29 glennk

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Posted 26 December 2006 - 06:19 PM

Well what you have been told is absolutely wrong Glenn!!!

All members were sent a questionnaire

A substantial number of replies giving members' opinions have been received and analysed.

The cut off date for completed returns is 31st December after which the results of the survey will be available on the NFSA website at http://www.nfsa.org.uk



Here is just 1 reply of many like them :

"Well as a member of NFSA I know that at no point have I been asked!!"



Do you want to tell him he's lyeing or shall I ?

Do you know how many of the affiliated clubs were asked ?

Edited by glennk, 26 December 2006 - 07:18 PM.


#30 stavey

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Posted 26 December 2006 - 06:39 PM

Glenn,


Currently they are working together to produce a draft document that is broadly acceptable to all stakeholders, acknowledging that some issues will be particularly contentions to some sectors.

ie, the representatives of the catching sector, and to some extent the SFCs don't want to see the 'Golden Mile' in there!



Support of the wider angling community and involvement by many more anglers is what will make the difference in just how much can be won of benefit, and how much that is possibly detrimental can be modified or defeated.

Welcome to the real world, it's not how many seem to imagine it!



Hi leon

Only a substantial proposal like the golden mile would maybe deliver the support you and the rest of the inshore rsa group reps would like to see, i hope not to see myself? a watering down of this proposal (if it has indeed been put forward that is) leon if you and the other guys stand firm on this golden mile and accept nothing short of it no matter how long it takes i know for a fact that licenses, and bag limits on bass would not be a problem from shore anglers down south for sure! i cant think for people up north they have it seems their own agenda, if you want me and others to get back off our arses and go out of our way to drum up the support you and the other guys crave for then let me know definitely what you and the rest are gonna stick to? i dont want to end up with egg on my face again like what happened with the bass mls debacle.

ps. i spoke face to face with one of your fellow inshore group members a couple of years ago and his words on a proposal like the golden mile! was something like NEVER IN A MILLION YEARS, see if you can work out who he was??? cheers.............
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