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#21 wurzel

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Posted 02 March 2007 - 09:56 PM

Not the world Leon, the UK.

The UK fleet as it is today is not capable of over fishing the local duck pond.
But still no let up.

My customers are more than happy to buy my fish, they show great respect, when I explain why I can't supply them with fish, including bass of 36 CM it's you and the government that lose respect.

Do you really believe that when with your help and sound advice given to DEFRA they have reduced us down to a very small cottage industry the EU will leave our seas full of fish and no commercial boats to fish it.
The CFP's right of access should have except for UK fishermen added to it.

Has the EU commission given you a guarantee that we won't be replaced by a European fleet?

I suspect the government has negotiated our rights away for something or other. DEFRA know this so they are going to manage you instead.

If you had the voices of millions of anglers maybe we could understand, but you haven't most don't know what you are on about or care for that matter, a lot if not the majority of good anglers have no problem finding fish. I know I don't, and if I put in the same effort beach fishing as I do freshwater I am confident I would catch fish.
Your reference to crumbs is just not true.

You are right who needs enemies with friends like you and Nick.
I fish to live and live to fish.

#22 Leon Roskilly

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Posted 02 March 2007 - 10:25 PM

And yet one day Wurzel (and it might take a generation).

If one distant day we are still to find UK fishermen going out to sustainably catch fish for the UK population, and plenty of fish for the beach anglers (good anglers and kids just starting too) to catch reasonable numbers of fish, and good sized specimens too.

It will be as a result of anglers and fishermen together understanding the needs of each other, and finding accomodations that mean both fairly share the fish according to the value they each place on them.


One distant day.

Edited by Leon Roskilly, 02 March 2007 - 10:26 PM.

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#23 ColinW

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Posted 02 March 2007 - 10:32 PM

....majority of good anglers have no problem finding fish. I know I don't, and if I put in the same effort beach fishing as I do freshwater I am confident I would catch fish....


Yeah right. Look at match results. They aren't crap anglers, they use the best gear, the best bait and what do they catch? Scraps.

#24 Jaffa

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Posted 02 March 2007 - 10:44 PM

The poor old fishing industry is being battered from all sides, the greens, consumers, supermarkets etc.
The World has changed.
Anglers percieve that the fish they target are being increasingly squeezed; flounder for pot bait, wrasse for sushi, mullet for beer money, as 'the industry' struggles to supply an increasing consumer demand for fish.

Whereas the science often warns that you can only cut the flesh so close to the bone, and environmentalists see the natural world, and the marine environment in particular, in deep trouble due to man's exploitation of vulnerable, once renewable resources.
The World has changed.
When there was plenty of fish, anglers and commercials lived in relative harmony, anglers happy with the more than adequate crumbs left by inefficient commercial exploitation of the available resources.

But as fish, particularly those close inshore where most angling takes place, became scarcer (apart from pouting!), RSA started questioning why a single stakeholder should take ownership of what was left of a publicly owned resource.

Despite the fact that in some areas, and for some species, management of a recreational sea fishery could provide far better societal and economic benefits for the people of the UK, both in livelihoods and business opportunites.

Not all areas, and certainly not all species.

So they asked for a slice of the cake, rather than making do with the few remaining crumbs.
The World has changed.
Now, if the beleaguered fishing industry had a nonce of sense and vision, it would know that it needs new friends, others with a common interest that can work with them towards a better future for all.

Add a million or so anglers voices to that of a few thousand fisherman and you have a force to be reckoned with.

All it would need to accomplish that is for 'the industry' to say 'Right lads, you have a case'

'Tell you what, where there are areas important to you, we will stay clear. After all most of your fishing is off the beach and in the estuaries in a relatively few places, whereas we have the whole of the fish-filled continental shelf to work, and the miles of coastline where you hardly ever see an angler. And of course, you won't mind us setting some herring-nets, pots etc in the places important to you will you?'

'Oh! and flounder, mullet and wrasse, tope? OK they are useful as pot bait, but we know you guys love catching them close inshore, so we'll not work them hard in recognition that you need some sport to sustain the livelihoods and businesses that depend on the RSA sector'

'And perhaps we can work something out on spudog and roker and bass, so that we all get increased value out of sustainable and robust fisheries'

And anglers say, 'Hey these are decent responsible guys, we can do a lot if we work together' :wub:
In your dreams!!

Just 4cm on bass and 'the industry' goes ape!

'It's our cake and you can p**s off', you aren't having any of it!'
What a terrible miscalculation, and another step backwards into the redoubt where all the world outside of 'the industry' becomes the enemy.

Scientists, fishery managers, the bl***y greens, the F*****g supermarkets, politicians, the consuming public and of course the anglers.
The world is changing.
Not now, perhaps not for a long time, but the penny will finally drop that it's over.
'The industry' has lost control of it's fish, lost the respect of the people, and now desperately needs friends.

'If only we had given a little, won over the anglers to our side, forged a respectful brotherhood of fishermen, not realised too late that the world had changed......................'
The World was changing and we didn't realise.


The world has indeed changed Leon; almost all the goods that pass through my workplace are now chinese made - it follows that power, influence and ideas are going to increasingly come from the east. Do they think like you out there? Will "tesco Bejing be the same as "Tesco Kent" ?

It does not matter one jot imho if the UK public do or do not buy species X. The British have historically a limited range of seafood they will buy, and the seafood industry has been international for hundreds of years. The greens (which includes sacn from all i've read, bordering on Peta with some of your commets...) believes RSA can rise up and be some kind of force withinn the wonderful framework of the EU.

I think you should give a straight answer to those that maybe don't follow EU stuff though ;)

Question to Leon:

Are the Uk fishery limits we have at the moment fixed in stone or are they open for revision every so often?

BTW Leon i like your "the world has changed " line. Be more accurate to say the world has always changed though ;) :), which leads to the question of why straitjacket legislation is a good response to everchanging conditions?!
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#25 BULLDRAGON

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Posted 02 March 2007 - 10:45 PM

Yeah right. Look at match results. They aren't crap anglers, they use the best gear, the best bait and what do they catch? Scraps.

I have no problem catching fish, all be it on the Chieftain from whitby it costs a bit but well worth evry penny

theres tons of the stuff out there

#26 Leon Roskilly

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Posted 02 March 2007 - 11:36 PM

Are the Uk fishery limits we have at the moment fixed in stone or are they open for revision every so often?



The unrealised principle of the unreformed CFP is that the concept of national fleets is redundant and that there should be a single EU fleet comprised of boats of the EU nations all having equal access to all EU waters.

(The same principle as exists within the UK whereby Cornish boats can fish Kent waters, and Kent boats can go and fish off Whitby, but on a larger scale).

But of course it doesn't work like that.

Each EU country has it's own fleet, it's own waters and it's own Fisheries Minister who (believe it or not, sticks up for the interests of his/her own countries fleet - even Bradshaw - er, I did say believe it or not!).


So, we have a 'derogation' designed to preserve 'relative stability'.


Before the EU, each nation only had control of it's own waters out to 3 miles.

Outside of 3 miles, it was international waters, the 'high seas', and British law stopped at the 3 mile line.


Then Iceland unilaterally decided to take control of its waters out to 200 miles, and domino like all other countries followed suite.


(In Europe, where different countries are closer than 400 miles, it's out to 200 or the median line, the line equidistant between two countries with shores closer to each other than 400 miles)

And under the Common Fisheries Policy, the EU nations pooled their extended national waters.


Except for that 'derogation' whereby each nation now exclusively fishes and enforces within 6 miles (double the pre cfp limit), and shares with nations whose vessels traditionally fished what was once the 'high seas' within 12 miles (often only for certain species at certain times of the year, and in certain places).

And yes the derogation is reviewed every 10 years (I think it's 7 years until the next review).


And yes it is technically conceivable that the derogation could be lifted, as ministers use it as a bargaining tool, and give every national fleet access to every EU countries beaches, but that just isn't going to happen. (but every ten years it does make a good bogeyman story to stir national fears of those 'orrible garlicky foreigners nicking all our fish off our beaches, and we have no way of saying no).

At a recent meeting with fishermen, I was concerned that if we really looked after out local inshore fishery, then the Cornishmen were free to move in and take what we had worked for.

But I was assured that it would never happen because to fish the local waters required local knowledge of the physical characteristics of the tides, the bottom, the way fish move in the district and the types of gear and the way to fish it best used for the district etc.

But I guess that those Belgians are too stupid to realise that, and if the derogation was to be lifted, they would be over here like a shot, to show those idiot Cornishmen the opportunities that they have been missing all these years.


But lets say there is to be a serious grab by some of our continental neighbours, wanting to fish up to our beaches in 7 years time , and HM Government is wavering over whether it's worth giving that up so that our banks can get a slice of the multi-hundred- billion euros life insurance market throughout Europe.

The thing that will stop them isn't the thought of losing the votes of a few thousand fishermen, but they might reconsider if the fishermen are supported by a million or so anglers and their supporters.

If at that time anglers think they might as well let the Belgians rape what's left of the inshore stocks as our own 'greedy' fishermen, 'the industry' will find itself in a very lonely and isolated postition.

And yet if they had given the needs of RSA some consideration, and had worked to share the resources as I outlined above, anglers sentiment could be very different.

Our great lads, who had recognised our right to some fish, and some places, and who'd worked with us to make our inshore fisheries better for everyone, are now at risk of being replaced by those raping b****s who have no interest in the preservation of one of Europe's best recreational sea fisheries, now need us to write letters to MP's, MEPs, send emails, join them to block the Thames with thousands of little craft etc.......


But yes, just a dream (sigh).


Unless there are some fundamental changes of attitude, and some realisation that change happens, and something better can be built out of it, it really makes no difference who is fishing right up to the beaches.

Not to anglers anyway.

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#27 wurzel

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Posted 03 March 2007 - 01:03 AM

And the alternative? No legislation and management? Why is it that we always have to wait for the close to total disaster before anybody doing anything about it?

Ok, maybe you are right. Maybe it was a (political) mistake to try manage the fish take and fleet size in the first place. Maybe the best thing would have been to let the commercial fishermen fish themselves out of business? It seems they wont believe anything before they have been through that kind of pain. Only problem for society in economic terms would be the loss of income from an industry fishing way below 'maximum sustainable yield' from now till the last vessel was going burst. As important it would bring angling down on its knees causing a possibly greater economic loss on top of the first one, and finally the problem with irreversible damage done to the ecosystem.

There are a lot of good fishermen out there but the bad guys would dictate any game without 'straitjacket legislation', and that game would be 'catch as much you can as fast as you can before your colleges/competitors do it'.
End of rant.



Are ranting about the UK fleet or all of the European fleet?

And where does the idea of fishing below maximum yeild come from? When for example I am allowed 50 Kg of dover sole a month while the Dutch hold around 300 ton of uncaught UK sole quota.

I don't know of any fishermen that ask for no legisation or management, just fair legisation and management.
I fish to live and live to fish.

#28 barry luxton

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Posted 03 March 2007 - 08:09 AM

Are ranting about the UK fleet or all of the European fleet?

And where does the idea of fishing below maximum yeild come from? When for example I am allowed 50 Kg of dover sole a month while the Dutch hold around 300 ton of uncaught UK sole quota.

I don't know of any fishermen that ask for no legisation or management, just fair legisation and management.

mornin Wurzel, l have seen this comment before and i ask you why do you have a quota that little and the dutch so high? Do they actually catch this quota or do they just hold it?
Where abouts would they catch it they was to target it. Is that for all the dutch fleet? Thanks

Edited by barry luxton, 03 March 2007 - 11:36 AM.

 Free to choose apart from the ones where the trust poked their nose in. Common eel. tope. Bass and sea bream. All restricted.

 
New for 2016 TAT are the main instigators for the demise of the u k bass charter boat industry, where they went screaming off to parliament and for the first time assisting so called angling gurus set up bass take bans with the e u using rubbish exaggerated info collected by ices from anglers, they must be very proud.

Upgrade, the door has been closed with regards to anglers being linked to the e u superstate and the failed c f p. So TAT will no longer need to pay monies to the EAA anymore as that org is no longer relevant to the u k . Goodbye to the europeon anglers alliance and pathetic restrictions from the e u.

Angling is better than politics, ban politics from angling.
 
Consumer of bass. where is the evidence that the u k bass stock need angling trust protection. Why won't you work with your peers instead of castigating them. They have the answer.

Recipie's for mullet stew more than welcomed.
 
Angling sanitation trust and kent and sussex sea anglers org delete's and blocks rsa's alternative opinion on their face book site. Although they claim to rep all.
 
new for 2014. where is the evidence that the south coast bream stock need the angling trust? Your campaign has no evidence. Why won't you work with your peers, the inshore under tens? As opposed to alienating them? Angling trust failed big time re bait digging, even fish legal attempted to intervene and failed, all for what, nothing.
 
Looks like the sea angling reps have been coerced by the ifca's to compose sea angling strategy's that the ifca's at some stage will look at drafting into legislation to manage the rsa, because  they like wasting tax payers money. That's without asking the rsa btw. You know who you are.. 


#29 steve good

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Posted 03 March 2007 - 09:09 AM

The poor old fishing industry is being battered from all sides, the greens, consumers, supermarkets etc.
The World has changed.
Anglers percieve that the fish they target are being increasingly squeezed; flounder for pot bait, wrasse for sushi, mullet for beer money, as 'the industry' struggles to supply an increasing consumer demand for fish.

Whereas the science often warns that you can only cut the flesh so close to the bone, and environmentalists see the natural world, and the marine environment in particular, in deep trouble due to man's exploitation of vulnerable, once renewable resources.
The World has changed.
When there was plenty of fish, anglers and commercials lived in relative harmony, anglers happy with the more than adequate crumbs left by inefficient commercial exploitation of the available resources.

But as fish, particularly those close inshore where most angling takes place, became scarcer (apart from pouting!), RSA started questioning why a single stakeholder should take ownership of what was left of a publicly owned resource.

Despite the fact that in some areas, and for some species, management of a recreational sea fishery could provide far better societal and economic benefits for the people of the UK, both in livelihoods and business opportunites.

Not all areas, and certainly not all species.

So they asked for a slice of the cake, rather than making do with the few remaining crumbs.
The World has changed.
Now, if the beleaguered fishing industry had a nonce of sense and vision, it would know that it needs new friends, others with a common interest that can work with them towards a better future for all.

Add a million or so anglers voices to that of a few thousand fisherman and you have a force to be reckoned with.

All it would need to accomplish that is for 'the industry' to say 'Right lads, you have a case'

'Tell you what, where there are areas important to you, we will stay clear. After all most of your fishing is off the beach and in the estuaries in a relatively few places, whereas we have the whole of the fish-filled continental shelf to work, and the miles of coastline where you hardly ever see an angler. And of course, you won't mind us setting some herring-nets, pots etc in the places important to you will you?'

'Oh! and flounder, mullet and wrasse, tope? OK they are useful as pot bait, but we know you guys love catching them close inshore, so we'll not work them hard in recognition that you need some sport to sustain the livelihoods and businesses that depend on the RSA sector'

'And perhaps we can work something out on spudog and roker and bass, so that we all get increased value out of sustainable and robust fisheries'

And anglers say, 'Hey these are decent responsible guys, we can do a lot if we work together' :wub:
In your dreams!!

Just 4cm on bass and 'the industry' goes ape!

'It's our cake and you can p**s off', you aren't having any of it!'
What a terrible miscalculation, and another step backwards into the redoubt where all the world outside of 'the industry' becomes the enemy.

Scientists, fishery managers, the bl***y greens, the F*****g supermarkets, politicians, the consuming public and of course the anglers.
The world is changing.
Not now, perhaps not for a long time, but the penny will finally drop that it's over.
'The industry' has lost control of it's fish, lost the respect of the people, and now desperately needs friends.

'If only we had given a little, won over the anglers to our side, forged a respectful brotherhood of fishermen, not realised too late that the world had changed......................'
The World was changing and we didn't realise.


Hi Leon

QUOTE/ But as fish, particularly those close inshore where most angling takes place, became scarcer

As allways anglers blame commercials and as you say most anglers fish close to the beach, millions of them.

If fish have become scarcer (I see no sign of it) then it is the anglers own fault, anglers have caught all the fish by weight of numbers and by fishing the same old grounds all the time.

The anglers problem as I see it, anglers are unlicenced,unregulated,unaccountable,uncontrollable and untouchable, also angling reps only represent less than 1% of all anglers and therefore are putting across what I believe amounts to there own personal veiws.

The one thing to bear in mind Leon is that if anything is to be achieved it would have to be on an EU basis or not at all

#30 stavey

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Posted 03 March 2007 - 10:36 AM

Hi Leon

QUOTE/ But as fish, particularly those close inshore where most angling takes place, became scarcer

As allways anglers blame commercials and as you say most anglers fish close to the beach, millions of them.

If fish have become scarcer (I see no sign of it) then it is the anglers own fault, anglers have caught all the fish by weight of numbers and by fishing the same old grounds all the time.

The anglers problem as I see it, anglers are unlicenced,unregulated,unaccountable,uncontrollable and untouchable, also angling reps only represent less than 1% of all anglers and therefore are putting across what I believe amounts to there own personal veiws.

The one thing to bear in mind Leon is that if anything is to be achieved it would have to be on an EU basis or not at all


Hi steve

What exactly would you like to see changed at the eu level under present conditions apart from being totaly left alone to catch as much as you want where you want etc? i know wurzel would like the same sole quota's as are belgium friends have, you seem to be mostly concerned about bass which dont have a quota at all i think? so if bass is your main bread winner? and the big ones which you say are plentyful (if we are to believe your posts on here) whats your problem?

If anglers have made their own problems as you say by over fishing from the same places and there is nothing left? what the hell do commercials still keep littering those areas with tangle nets and still trawl there for? maybe its all done to wind anglers up? if so steve its working mate but not to their advantage, quite the opposite in fact, its a shame realy that all this crap being flung between the two is going to take decades to clear up, by then the sea,s around our shores will be well and truly frigged along with no uk inshore fishermen and rsa's left to argue over it! oh well, cheers.............
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