Rsa versus Commercial

[wurzel]

Hello leon

 

Hind sight is a marvellous thing, but I do believe that enough fish stay within 200 miles of our coast including a short piece of sea with a median line to provide a good sustainable living for a UK fleet.

Access to Norway's waters is on their terms one reason they did not join the EU was so as not to lose the right to impose those terms.

The UK would have been able to do the same with the Dutch and Belgium Beamer fleet same for the French pair trawlers on the winter bass fishery as with the Spanish further south.

 

Alas as you say it will never happen and know aided and abetted by our government ,DEFRA and now RSA reps the EU have no plans for a UK commercial fishing fleet.

[Leon Roskilly]

Access to Norway's waters is on their terms one reason they did not join the EU was so as not to lose the right to impose those terms.

 

Yes but access to their waters is currently negotiated through the EU, a sizeable bloc who have much to offer Norway in return.

 

Now if we were out of the EU, what would the UK be able to offer Norway for the same access as our boats get now?

 

And if the EU were to tell Norway, "Sorry but we want to be the only other bloc with access to your fish. If you negotiate a seperate deal with the independent UK, then you will have trouble from us"

 

What could we offer Norway to outbid the EU?

 

And if we couldn't outbid the EU for access to Norway, and the EU said to us "We'll allow Norway to do a deal with you, but in return we would like our boats to have access to some of your waters in return"?

 

You see it could be very different outside of the CFP, and maybe not as rosy and independent as many dream that it would be.

[JB]

Hi Steve,

 

To be the same as Iceland, we also need to relocate our island somewhere quite a long way from mainland Europe, so that 'our' fish can't stray into 'their' waters (and vice versa).

 

Oh! and someone better explain to the Scottish lads why they will not be welcome in Norway's waters in future and why (failing being able to relocate the island much further offshore) our boats will be fired upon if they go too far over the median line, chasing 'English' fish who for some reason want to swim to over there (where the French will probably grab them before they can make it back to 'safety')

 

If we weren't in the CFP, we'd have to figure out a system like it to manage the stocks we mutally share with other nations, and as one nation agains all those in the EU (as opposed to being part of it), we might find ouselves unable to even negotiate the less han favourable terms we are able to manage now.

 

Still it's easier to think that all our problems will be solved by pulling out, rather than making your head hurt trying to think of ways to fix the system I suppose.

 

Even though there isn't a cat in hell's chance of a workable alternative.

 

I can't remember exactly now, but I think that whereas Iceland has around a dozen species that require International management agreements, we have in the region of 80!

I realise that the UK withdrawing from the CFP is unlikely in the extreme, so it makes this question purely hypothetical.

 

If our government had had the balls to look after our own fish stocks right out to the median line thirty odd years ago. Might things have been different or do you firmly believe that the decision they made was correct? In which case, are you saying that since the CFP has been in operation, its policies have had no effects on angler’s catches; and continuing to remain within CFP will not affect their future catches?

 

JB

[Leon Roskilly]

I realise that the UK withdrawing from the CFP is unlikely in the extreme, so it makes this question purely hypothetical.

 

If our government had had the balls to look after our own fish stocks right out to the median line thirty odd years ago. Might things have been different or do you firmly believe that the decision they made was correct? In which case, are you saying that since the CFP has been in operation, its policies have had no effects on angler’s catches; and continuing to remain within CFP will not affect their future catches?

 

 

The decision made thirty years ago was to weigh up the overall likely benefits to be gained by all sectors within the UK in joining one of the world's great trading blocs, against the potential damage to a relatively unimportant sector.

 

(Very important to those involved in the sector, and the communities dependent upon the sector, but as with the docks, shipbuilding, farming, steel and mining not of such vital importance. - With Iceland and Norway, they didn't have the same kind of options, fish was a mainstay of their economies, with Iceland particularly so. It's interesting that Iceland has now diversified its economy considerably which is probably now the biggest danger that the Icelandic fishing industry faces).

 

Had we stayed in would things have been better?

 

That is a very theoritical question and there are many different scenarios, everyone is inclined to pick the one that best suits what they want to believe.

 

Do I believe that the UK fishing industry, managed by DEFRA would not have cut the stocks so close to the bone as now, whilst still maintaining a fishery subject to 'the tragedy of the commons'?

 

Do I believe that the DEFRA could have successfully negotiated better international deals with other fishing nations and particularly when facing up to a powerful bloc of nations with the combined negotiating power of the CFP, when carving up a share of internationally managed stocks such as cod, blue whiting and all the rest?

 

Even outside of the EU, we still have to face the fact that fishing isn't that important to the UK.

 

If it wasn't for the political interest that being part of the EU and the CFP stirs, would UK politicians long ago have washed their hands of the problem and through de-regulation, allowed foreign companies, using foreign cheap labour to take over our fishing industry, buying cheap boats and gear from the Far East, and shipping off the catch in foreign freezer vessels.?

 

Or perhaps simply consigned such a troublesome industry to history along with the mines, dockyards, shipbuilding, steel works etc and the communities that once depended upon them?

 

And if the UK hadn't joined the CFP, and had a strong will to maintain our fishing industry, would we have had the international negotiating power to protect the best interests of our fishing industry, not only when manging stocks internationally, but providing markets for our products?

(With a world shortage of fish, perhaps international marketing would not be such a problem, but would we have managed the best price when competing and would we have resisted the market demand to strip our fisheries bare?)

 

Who knows.

 

A long time ago I was told that when you a flying a glider and have entered a rock strewn valley and don't have the height to get back out, the trick was to concentrate all of your thinking in making the decisions that would allow you to make the best possible crash landing in the best possible place.

 

Rather than (as it is human to be inclined to do) to scratch around looking for non-existant thermals, or to regret having made that decision to enter the valley in the first place, wasting time and failing to get to grips with the situation as it is.

 

 

The tragedy is that whilst energy and thought is put into thinking "If only 30 years ago we had made a different decision, we wouldn't be where we are now' (ignoring the possibility that it could be a lot worse if we had).

 

or 'If only we could get our country to withdraw from the CFP, everything will be much better' (ignoring the considerable different problems we would then face)

 

Few are concentrating on the very real fact that we ARE part of the CFP.

 

And WE have a part to play in making it better than it is now.

 

And that is the BEST path for the future.

 

Because in all our hearts we all know that leaving the CFP isn't a realistic option at all.

[ColinW]

Because in all our hearts we all know that leaving the CFP isn't a realistic option at all.

 

How true. Do people honestly think a British government would upset the EU for the sake of a few thousand commercial fishermen when hundreds of thousands of UK citizens own properties in other EU countries?

Has the EU been a total disaster? Well, when I walk around in my area I see development after development with that blue starry sign on them. I know EU finding comes from our taxes but at least the EU DOES fund projects in the North, which is more than can be said for our government (Millenium dome, New Wembley, Olympics, Diamond Synchrotron, southeast, southeast, southeast, southeast.)

[JB]

A long time ago I was told that when you a flying a glider and have entered a rock strewn valley and don't have the height to get back out, the trick was to concentrate all of your thinking in making the decisions that would allow you to make the best possible crash landing in the best possible place.

Hi Leon,

Thank you for your opinion. I do feel your analogy which I have quoted is correct. However, I would like to add that in this particular hypothetical valley, it is not just one glider in this dire predicament, but very many. As you say, “the trick was to concentrate all of your thinking in making the decisions that would allow you to make the best possible crash landing in the best possible place.” Unfortunately, under these particular circumstances, each pilot is unable to spare the time to consider the other pilots’ welfare. Decisions made under this stressful predicament may be to the detriment of others, and even all. I believe this to be the case among all who fish. The basic need to look after one’s own interests may also be partially responsible for the many splinter groups among both the recreational and commercial sectors.

 

JB

[steve good]

The decision made thirty years ago was to weigh up the overall likely benefits to be gained by all sectors within the UK in joining one of the world's great trading blocs, against the potential damage to a relatively unimportant sector.

 

(Very important to those involved in the sector, and the communities dependent upon the sector, but as with the docks, shipbuilding, farming, steel and mining not of such vital importance. - With Iceland and Norway, they didn't have the same kind of options, fish was a mainstay of their economies, with Iceland particularly so. It's interesting that Iceland has now diversified its economy considerably which is probably now the biggest danger that the Icelandic fishing industry faces).

 

Had we stayed in would things have been better?

 

That is a very theoritical question and there are many different scenarios, everyone is inclined to pick the one that best suits what they want to believe.

 

Do I believe that the UK fishing industry, managed by DEFRA would not have cut the stocks so close to the bone as now, whilst still maintaining a fishery subject to 'the tragedy of the commons'?

 

Do I believe that the DEFRA could have successfully negotiated better international deals with other fishing nations and particularly when facing up to a powerful bloc of nations with the combined negotiating power of the CFP, when carving up a share of internationally managed stocks such as cod, blue whiting and all the rest?

 

Even outside of the EU, we still have to face the fact that fishing isn't that important to the UK.

 

If it wasn't for the political interest that being part of the EU and the CFP stirs, would UK politicians long ago have washed their hands of the problem and through de-regulation, allowed foreign companies, using foreign cheap labour to take over our fishing industry, buying cheap boats and gear from the Far East, and shipping off the catch in foreign freezer vessels.?

 

Or perhaps simply consigned such a troublesome industry to history along with the mines, dockyards, shipbuilding, steel works etc and the communities that once depended upon them?

 

And if the UK hadn't joined the CFP, and had a strong will to maintain our fishing industry, would we have had the international negotiating power to protect the best interests of our fishing industry, not only when manging stocks internationally, but providing markets for our products?

(With a world shortage of fish, perhaps international marketing would not be such a problem, but would we have managed the best price when competing and would we have resisted the market demand to strip our fisheries bare?)

 

Who knows.

 

A long time ago I was told that when you a flying a glider and have entered a rock strewn valley and don't have the height to get back out, the trick was to concentrate all of your thinking in making the decisions that would allow you to make the best possible crash landing in the best possible place.

 

Rather than (as it is human to be inclined to do) to scratch around looking for non-existant thermals, or to regret having made that decision to enter the valley in the first place, wasting time and failing to get to grips with the situation as it is.

The tragedy is that whilst energy and thought is put into thinking "If only 30 years ago we had made a different decision, we wouldn't be where we are now' (ignoring the possibility that it could be a lot worse if we had).

 

or 'If only we could get our country to withdraw from the CFP, everything will be much better' (ignoring the considerable different problems we would then face)

 

Few are concentrating on the very real fact that we ARE part of the CFP.

 

And WE have a part to play in making it better than it is now.

 

And that is the BEST path for the future.

 

Because in all our hearts we all know that leaving the CFP isn't a realistic option at all.

 

Hi Leon

 

QUOTE/ Few are concentrating on the very real fact that we ARE part of the CFP.

 

And WE have a part to play in making it better than it is now.

 

And that is the BEST path for the future.

 

Because in all our hearts we all know that leaving the CFP isn't a realistic option at all.

 

 

Leon we all know in our own hearts that the CFP does not work it never will and all fisheries in there own time frame are dommed regardless of any well meaning good natured action that this country may make. The EU are an animal unto themsevles.

 

In time everyone in the UK will be the lossers

 

steve

[The doctor]

The EU are an animal unto themsevles.

 

In time everyone in the UK will be the lossers

 

steve

 

 

I take it then Steve that you are opposed to the FIFG funding made available through the commission. A total of 1.1b Euros made available for the period 2000/06. I have somewhere the most recent list of UK grant applications, detailing who, where, what for and how much.

 

An animal the EU may be, it may not be the golden goose unfortunately, however it is certainly being milked by a number of UK fishermen. And why not, if the funding is available. What I fail to understand is the mentality of a few who are 'holding out the begging bowl in one hand, with a revolver behind ones back ready, just in case it doesn't give you as much as you'd like.

 

Maybe thats the British disease.

[Guest challenge]

I take it then Steve that you are opposed to the FIFG funding made available through the commission. A total of 1.1b Euros made available for the period 2000/06. I have somewhere the most recent list of UK grant applications, detailing who, where, what for and how much.

 

An animal the EU may be, it may not be the golden goose unfortunately, however it is certainly being milked by a number of UK fishermen. And why not, if the funding is available. What I fail to understand is the mentality of a few who are 'holding out the begging bowl in one hand, with a revolver behind ones back ready, just in case it doesn't give you as much as you'd like.

 

Maybe thats the British disease.

Could you please tell us what number of fishermen that actually is doc that are applying for all this money and are actually receiving all this money?

it would be of great interest as I know that when I was commercially fishing that there where grants about but they took a hell of a lot of getting and that the ones that I ever experienced where for boat improvements or boat (new) building.

Have things changed so much since the 1990,s?

Regards.

[steve good]

I take it then Steve that you are opposed to the FIFG funding made available through the commission. A total of 1.1b Euros made available for the period 2000/06. I have somewhere the most recent list of UK grant applications, detailing who, where, what for and how much.

 

An animal the EU may be, it may not be the golden goose unfortunately, however it is certainly being milked by a number of UK fishermen. And why not, if the funding is available. What I fail to understand is the mentality of a few who are 'holding out the begging bowl in one hand, with a revolver behind ones back ready, just in case it doesn't give you as much as you'd like.

 

Maybe thats the British disease.

 

Hi Doc

As you say it is only a few that are holding out a begging bowl, and why not, 1.1bn Euros is peanuts compared to the billions of pounds that this country waste by being in the EU, and all our billions of pounds go to other member states in the form of grants.

 

The FIFG funding is poor compensation for a failed CFP.

 

steve