marine white paper

[Fastd]

Hello Stavey

 

I disagree that the majority of offences go unreported or not dealt with if found. Quota's are not part of the local SFC jurisdiction but every thing else is including local variations covered by bylaws. I don't know of much letting off of offences in this area and can remember several court cases brought about by the local officer over the years, but as Steve G says they have quite large areas to cover, not sure cutting the areas is the answer, increasing the men at the front by a couple would be better than a whole new committee set up in a new area.

Disregarding stupid quotas I think on the whole fulltime UK fishermen are basically honest and abide by the rules.

 

I don't see what the golden mile has to do with it.Bag limits would hep police oddbod hobby netters.

 

Wurzel.

Seems there is a conflict of opinions here...steve is saying he never sees an enforcement officer and yet you say in your area they prosecute everything...seems there are local variations in the efficiency of local sfc's. By making sure the sfc's are properly funded it would help to even out these local variations. In our region the nsfc area is 1/3 of the nesfc..it would make sense to me if the committee bounderies were changed to even out the actual coast covered by each patrol vessel.

 

From what I understand the partrol vessel is at sea 3-4 days a week in our region ...so its a lottery ..if you choose the right days of the week you can get away with murder ...its just a matter of knowing the right days.

 

Surely a major capital investment like a patrol vessel should be utilised to its maximum ...if its maximum utilisation is dependent on funding then something is seriously wrong with the funding mechanism for the sfc's. If a particular sfc has a large area to cover then surely additional funding for patrol vessels should be available. Certain areas have longer coastlines to control so additional funds should be available...or perhaps even out the areas they cover to provide even law enforcement throughout all regions.

 

By improving the funding for enforcement of the laws in each sfc region ( or whatever they become) both RSA's and commercials would reap the benifits. The current situation where the councils pay the bils does not work as we can all see by their attitude to gritting the roads when its icy. These are the people currenly funding the enforcement of inshore bylaws and we all know they will cut back at every available opportunity. If they see no prosecutions they will reduce funding accordingly ...a bit of a catch22 situation. If the patrol vessels had the funding to be at sea 7 days a week the situation may be totally different.

 

Has Steve highlighted a major failure in the workings of the SFC's in that they are ineffective to the detriment of both commercials and RSA's? The white paper clealy states that its time to update some centuries old legislation and I would certainly agree that is the case...all that remains is to get the wording of every new paragraph of every new law to be to the likeing of every RSA and commercial fisherman out there.....piece of cake...or not as the case may be.

 

Cheers

Dave

[steve good]

Wurzel.

Seems there is a conflict of opinions here...steve is saying he never sees an enforcement officer and yet you say in your area they prosecute everything...seems there are local variations in the efficiency of local sfc's. By making sure the sfc's are properly funded it would help to even out these local variations. In our region the nsfc area is 1/3 of the nesfc..it would make sense to me if the committee bounderies were changed to even out the actual coast covered by each patrol vessel.

 

From what I understand the partrol vessel is at sea 3-4 days a week in our region ...so its a lottery ..if you choose the right days of the week you can get away with murder ...its just a matter of knowing the right days.

 

Surely a major capital investment like a patrol vessel should be utilised to its maximum ...if its maximum utilisation is dependent on funding then something is seriously wrong with the funding mechanism for the sfc's. If a particular sfc has a large area to cover then surely additional funding for patrol vessels should be available. Certain areas have longer coastlines to control so additional funds should be available...or perhaps even out the areas they cover to provide even law enforcement throughout all regions.

 

By improving the funding for enforcement of the laws in each sfc region ( or whatever they become) both RSA's and commercials would reap the benifits. The current situation where the councils pay the bils does not work as we can all see by their attitude to gritting the roads when its icy. These are the people currenly funding the enforcement of inshore bylaws and we all know they will cut back at every available opportunity. If they see no prosecutions they will reduce funding accordingly ...a bit of a catch22 situation. If the patrol vessels had the funding to be at sea 7 days a week the situation may be totally different.

 

Has Steve highlighted a major failure in the workings of the SFC's in that they are ineffective to the detriment of both commercials and RSA's? The white paper clealy states that its time to update some centuries old legislation and I would certainly agree that is the case...all that remains is to get the wording of every new paragraph of every new law to be to the likeing of every RSA and commercial fisherman out there.....piece of cake...or not as the case may be.

 

Cheers

 

Hi Fastd

 

Wurzel may be right about the size of the SFC's areas to me it just seems easy to have smaller areas which is easier to control.

 

Seems to me that there are 6 points that need to be looked at.

 

Committee It is important that the committee is made up of people that are experianced and capable, perhaps a course in fisheries management for all committee members. I believe the days of a job for the boys with no experiance are over

 

Communication A better system to collect more information from stakeholders throughtout the SFC'c district, eg:- more imput to the committee, The committee will only ever be as good as the stakeholders make it.

 

Byelaws There should be a fast track byelaw system, not a slow train to China like we got now

 

Deterrant A better one is needed

 

Funding Well we know that is a issue, the committee should be more open and accountable to stakeholders on how and what the funding is spent on.

 

Manpower and eqipment There are not enough fisheries officers for the large areas that the SFC control, the cost of patrol vessels these days perhaps extra fisheries officer would be more cost effetive by having them shore based and on patrol around the coast.

 

Before making any decisions on the above the most important thing is will the powers of tthe SFC's be extended from the 6 mile fishing limit to the 12 mile one, and will there powers extend to other EU member states fishing in the 6 to 12 mile zone

 

The point is if you make the SFC's more effective and then extend their powers to the 6 to 12 zone (enlarge their area) you would then be taking away their ability to be effective

 

steve

 

 

Dave

[stavey]

Hello Stavey

 

I disagree that the majority of offences go unreported or not dealt with if found. Quota's are not part of the local SFC jurisdiction but every thing else is including local variations covered by bylaws. I don't know of much letting off of offences in this area and can remember several court cases brought about by the local officer over the years, but as Steve G says they have quite large areas to cover, not sure cutting the areas is the answer, increasing the men at the front by a couple would be better than a whole new committee set up in a new area.

Disregarding stupid quotas I think on the whole fulltime UK fishermen are basically honest and abide by the rules.

 

I don't see what the golden mile has to do with it.Bag limits would hep police oddbod hobby netters.

 

Hi wurzel

 

I wish that it was just the oddbod hobby netters that was the problem for rsa's in my area but when you see trawlers like the one that mr george uses for instance, that close in you can hit with a lead with a modest cast from the beach it kind of doubts the opinion like you have on that they are all honest rule abiding people wurzel,even steve g's opinion is that mr george is unlikely to be the only one of he's type from these shores, and i think you'll find he is no hobby netter either.

 

The reason i mentioned the golden mile is that even today most rsa's dont know what the laws are! and when they come up against such rule breaking as like the one above they dont report it because they just dont "know" a simple straight forward bylaw like the gm would clear all this up and any close inshore netting bylaw violations.

 

I have been told wurzel, its just not the rsa's that want the trawlers out of the first mile from the beach, the local potters dont want it either, and there are many more of them than finfish boys around here, cheers.................

[wurzel]

Well It's certainly different in this area, and the odd Mr Georges would not get away with fishing in side their limit for long.

 

The navy regularly patrol along the 6 mile line some times coming closer and boarding inshore boats, then there is the local sfc patrol boats of which there are two for the Kent and Essex and one for the Eastern sfc, the Eastern one often has a DEFRA inspector along for the ride, then you are likely to be met ashore by either a DEFRA or a Kent and Essex inspector. All bigger boats (15 meters) are monitored by satellite in an ops room in London so they don't need to be seen by any local officer or reported by anglers, next time any of you reps are in the DEFRA Building ask to see the ops room, It's an impressive bit of kit.

If you include the crews on the patrol boats and office staff there are more of them than there is of us.

 

A point of interest for Stavey.

On the Belgium coast quite large beamers some being shrimp trawlers using very fine mesh, are allowed and often do trawl along the beaches, it does not seem to have effected the fish much, A Belgium college often has catches that I can only dream about.

[barry luxton]

Having read the licencing section again i cannot see any referance with licences being linked to more or bigger fish. There is nothing in the section that actually relates to assisting anglers to angling or improvement of the same.

 

The detail in this section relates to how your money is to be spent on administration,monitoring, inspection, evaluation of the measures introduced which directly benifits anglers but nothing about helping to you catch, any, more or bigger fish. Do you think they have left something out?

 

They have also announcd a management plan for bass previously? ( i don't know why they had to include that in this section).

 

More money will be required to make significant improvements in the service's to anglers, can someone translate that bit into what is being supplied at present and what they intend to improve, thanks.

[steve good]

Hi wurzel

 

I wish that it was just the oddbod hobby netters that was the problem for rsa's in my area but when you see trawlers like the one that mr george uses for instance, that close in you can hit with a lead with a modest cast from the beach it kind of doubts the opinion like you have on that they are all honest rule abiding people wurzel,even steve g's opinion is that mr george is unlikely to be the only one of he's type from these shores, and i think you'll find he is no hobby netter either.

 

The reason i mentioned the golden mile is that even today most rsa's dont know what the laws are! and when they come up against such rule breaking as like the one above they dont report it because they just dont "know" a simple straight forward bylaw like the gm would clear all this up and any close inshore netting bylaw violations.

 

I have been told wurzel, its just not the rsa's that want the trawlers out of the first mile from the beach, the local potters dont want it either, and there are many more of them than finfish boys around here, cheers.................

 

Hi stavey

 

I agree with wurzel most commercial fishermen I know are honest rule abiding people.

 

It would be dishonest of me to say all fisherman were, there are allways afew of these people in all walks of life, even anglers have them, you know the anglers that sell there fish.

 

The few people that break the rules are only taking fish from honest people and that is why I am saying that the derrant and punishment should be much harsher

 

steve

[stavey]

Hi stavey

 

I agree with wurzel most commercial fishermen I know are honest rule abiding people.

 

It would be dishonest of me to say all fisherman were, there are allways afew of these people in all walks of life, even anglers have them, you know the anglers that sell there fish.

 

The few people that break the rules are only taking fish from honest people and that is why I am saying that the derrant and punishment should be much harsher

 

steve

 

Ok steve and wurzel, i will go along with you both that the majority of commercial fishermen do try to stick to the rules and like you say there are a few that dont and that there is some on the rod and line side side as well ( i dont consider these to be rsa's as they are clearly doing it for the dosh and not for recreation) lets put this finaly to bed ok?

 

Now how to eradicate the problem of the few bad apples that is the question? (well for steve's and my area that is, as wurzel's seems buttoned up on policing and very tight compared to what we seem to have) as steve says the deterent is no where near enough of a one to stop the bad behaviour and rule breaking, but as we all know this is the case in most of the laws to do with everything in this country, so i am not at all confident that a big enough of a deterent will ever come about? and waiting for our governments to do so is a waste of everyones time imo, so some other idea's anyone?

 

I and some other(not all) rsa's have done a bit of commercial bashing if you like on this forum and on my part it is just pure frustration nothing more! this leading to me throwing my toys out of the pram now and them,but i think we all can be a little guilty of that cant we? but i genuinly have no malice/hatred for any commercial fishermen believe it or not? and i think its time that both sectors realised that, and knocking lumps out of each other is not going to achieve anything for either of us. Commercials (we are told all the time)say that they are happy with the state of fish stocks and are plentyful, and if allowed? they could prove it if it was not for quota's and tie ups, fair enough catch as much as you want i say and i would be happy for them to do so, but i am not at all happy and content at the quality of sport/fish stocks off my local shoreline and the continuing decline of it year on year, so i would like to ask those commercials what should i do about it? or more the case, a big majority of the rsa's shore anglers, should they shut up!! and put up with it? (like some have said) or take up darts and jack rsa in altogether? or do something about it? i prefer the latter, but it would be more constructive for all i believe to credit and listen to some of the rsa's idea's and opinions without to much of the old i know better attitude now and then imo, anyway i have said enough and i apologise to the poster of this topic for taking it off thread a bit, cheers all...............

[steve good]

Ok steve and wurzel, i will go along with you both that the majority of commercial fishermen do try to stick to the rules and like you say there are a few that dont and that there is some on the rod and line side side as well ( i dont consider these to be rsa's as they are clearly doing it for the dosh and not for recreation) lets put this finaly to bed ok?

 

Now how to eradicate the problem of the few bad apples that is the question? (well for steve's and my area that is, as wurzel's seems buttoned up on policing and very tight compared to what we seem to have) as steve says the deterent is no where near enough of a one to stop the bad behaviour and rule breaking, but as we all know this is the case in most of the laws to do with everything in this country, so i am not at all confident that a big enough of a deterent will ever come about? and waiting for our governments to do so is a waste of everyones time imo, so some other idea's anyone?

 

I and some other(not all) rsa's have done a bit of commercial bashing if you like on this forum and on my part it is just pure frustration nothing more! this leading to me throwing my toys out of the pram now and them,but i think we all can be a little guilty of that cant we? but i genuinly have no malice/hatred for any commercial fishermen believe it or not? and i think its time that both sectors realised that, and knocking lumps out of each other is not going to achieve anything for either of us. Commercials (we are told all the time)say that they are happy with the state of fish stocks and are plentyful, and if allowed? they could prove it if it was not for quota's and tie ups, fair enough catch as much as you want i say and i would be happy for them to do so, but i am not at all happy and content at the quality of sport/fish stocks off my local shoreline and the continuing decline of it year on year, so i would like to ask those commercials what should i do about it? or more the case, a big majority of the rsa's shore anglers, should they shut up!! and put up with it? (like some have said) or take up darts and jack rsa in altogether? or do something about it? i prefer the latter, but it would be more constructive for all i believe to credit and listen to some of the rsa's idea's and opinions without to much of the old i know better attitude now and then imo, anyway i have said enough and i apologise to the poster of this topic for taking it off thread a bit, cheers all...............

 

Hi stavey

 

QUOTE/ Now how to eradicate the problem of the few bad apples that is the question? (well for steve's and my area that is, as wurzel's seems buttoned up on policing and very tight compared to what we seem to have) as steve says the deterent is no where near enough of a one to stop the bad behaviour and rule breaking, but as we all know this is the case in most of the laws to do with everything in this country, so i am not at all confident that a big enough of a deterent will ever come about? and waiting for our governments to do so is a waste of everyones time imo, so some other idea's anyone?

 

My fishing licence says that an offence carries a maximum fine of £50,000 and yet to my knowledge this has never been imposed. Thats why I say breach of the rules should lead to losted fishing time to licence being revoked on the third conviction may be this should be put in the Marine Bill.

 

If no take zones come into affect you will need some derrant like what I say to stop the bad apples and I am sure the greens would agree with this as much as I hate saying it lol.

 

QUOTE/ I and some other(not all) rsa's have done a bit of commercial bashing if you like on this forum and on my part it is just pure frustration nothing more! this leading to me throwing my toys out of the pram now and them,but i think we all can be a little guilty of that cant we? but i genuinly have no malice/hatred for any commercial fishermen believe it or not? and i think its time that both sectors realised that, and knocking lumps out of each other is not going to achieve anything for either of us.

 

We have all done this, but we should respect each others position more.

 

QUOTE/ Commercials (we are told all the time)say that they are happy with the state of fish stocks and are plentyful, and if allowed? they could prove it if it was not for quota's and tie ups, fair enough catch as much as you want i say and i would be happy for them to do so, but i am not at all happy and content at the quality of sport/fish stocks off my local shoreline and the continuing decline of it year on year, so i would like to ask those commercials what should i do about it? or more the case, a big majority of the rsa's shore anglers, should they shut up!! and put up with it? (like some have said) or take up darts and jack rsa in altogether? or do something about it? i prefer the latter, but it would be more constructive for all i believe to credit and listen to some of the rsa's idea's and opinions without to much of the old i know better attitude now and then imo, anyway i have said enough and i apologise to the poster of this topic for taking it off thread a bit, cheers all...............

 

 

Differcult one this, My experiance is, I do not catch many bass under the kilo size but I am catching far more larger ones my sole catches and size are by far better than in the pasted and their are more plaice about now, I do not catch many cod these days.

 

I cannot explain why the beach anglers catches is as you say. Can you tell me what sort of fish you normally catch at the differant times of year.

 

I do not think anglers should shut up or anyone else for that matter who have a greivance about something and I would not like to see you give up angling. Fishing in all its forms gets into the blood and becomes a way of life,

 

QUOTE/ to much of the old i know better attitude

 

This is not the case all the time. What I have learnt on here is-- Both sides are defending their wicket so much that they do not want to accept anything whatsoever that the other side is saying.In any event angling and commercial fishermen are by the very nature of what they do will allways be miles apart on most issue its ashame because the greens will use this split and make great use of it. The Marine Bill well most of the final content of it will end up as the greens want it to be and after that they have control.

 

steve

[stavey]

Hi stavey

 

QUOTE/ Now how to eradicate the problem of the few bad apples that is the question? (well for steve's and my area that is, as wurzel's seems buttoned up on policing and very tight compared to what we seem to have) as steve says the deterent is no where near enough of a one to stop the bad behaviour and rule breaking, but as we all know this is the case in most of the laws to do with everything in this country, so i am not at all confident that a big enough of a deterent will ever come about? and waiting for our governments to do so is a waste of everyones time imo, so some other idea's anyone?

 

My fishing licence says that an offence carries a maximum fine of £50,000 and yet to my knowledge this has never been imposed. Thats why I say breach of the rules should lead to losted fishing time to licence being revoked on the third conviction may be this should be put in the Marine Bill.

 

If no take zones come into affect you will need some derrant like what I say to stop the bad apples and I am sure the greens would agree with this as much as I hate saying it lol.

 

QUOTE/ I and some other(not all) rsa's have done a bit of commercial bashing if you like on this forum and on my part it is just pure frustration nothing more! this leading to me throwing my toys out of the pram now and them,but i think we all can be a little guilty of that cant we? but i genuinly have no malice/hatred for any commercial fishermen believe it or not? and i think its time that both sectors realised that, and knocking lumps out of each other is not going to achieve anything for either of us.

 

We have all done this, but we should respect each others position more.

 

QUOTE/ Commercials (we are told all the time)say that they are happy with the state of fish stocks and are plentyful, and if allowed? they could prove it if it was not for quota's and tie ups, fair enough catch as much as you want i say and i would be happy for them to do so, but i am not at all happy and content at the quality of sport/fish stocks off my local shoreline and the continuing decline of it year on year, so i would like to ask those commercials what should i do about it? or more the case, a big majority of the rsa's shore anglers, should they shut up!! and put up with it? (like some have said) or take up darts and jack rsa in altogether? or do something about it? i prefer the latter, but it would be more constructive for all i believe to credit and listen to some of the rsa's idea's and opinions without to much of the old i know better attitude now and then imo, anyway i have said enough and i apologise to the poster of this topic for taking it off thread a bit, cheers all...............

Differcult one this, My experiance is, I do not catch many bass under the kilo size but I am catching far more larger ones my sole catches and size are by far better than in the pasted and their are more plaice about now, I do not catch many cod these days.

 

I cannot explain why the beach anglers catches is as you say. Can you tell me what sort of fish you normally catch at the differant times of year.

 

I do not think anglers should shut up or anyone else for that matter who have a greivance about something and I would not like to see you give up angling. Fishing in all its forms gets into the blood and becomes a way of life,

 

QUOTE/ to much of the old i know better attitude

 

This is not the case all the time. What I have learnt on here is-- Both sides are defending their wicket so much that they do not want to accept anything whatsoever that the other side is saying.In any event angling and commercial fishermen are by the very nature of what they do will allways be miles apart on most issue its ashame because the greens will use this split and make great use of it. The Marine Bill well most of the final content of it will end up as the greens want it to be and after that they have control.

 

steve

 

Thanks steve for your detailed reply.

 

I can agree with you with the three strikes and out idea as regards the bad apples indeed i would probably go little further and say once their licenses had been revoked after a period of say at a minimum of 6 months, they then would have to buy it back at todays values maybe, and these proceeds then put directly back into continued good policing for those that do the work, and not in the chancelor's treasury for mp's expensives ie, lady whiplashes (or an equivalent male version what ever that is?) no what i mean?

 

What we catch now as compared to years past off the beach/up the estuaries etc, is the whole crux of the matter steve lets say that if i was to go on the last few say 5 years i would have to say not a great deal at all, but if we go back 20/30 years i could talk about plenty of bass of 7lb and over/ codling by the shed load and a good number of doubles/ flounders/plaice/sole all well over the mls and shoals of thin and thick lipped mullet up the rivers so thick you could walk on them, crazy thing steve i never use to catch to many small pout or whiting or rockling for that matter but nowadays they are the only thing that you may catch if at all, maybe you can help unravell that little mystery for me?

 

As for fishing/sea angling getting into the blood? i can see what you mean but if i had to live without i would manage but it would be hard to endure, it is because of the experiences from a young age of catching such lage specimens of all species from the good times past and the very tiny hope that something aproaching 10% those days may come back? it just about keeps me going, consequently i dont go no where enough like i used to, it all just seems to me (at times and it often turns out) a pointless exercise, i agree with the likes of wurzel about good and bad cycles of species stocks over the decades and the link to water temps etc, but to the extent i have witnessed in the way of the drastic declines this cannot be the only contributed factor, man has definantly made an equal or even bigger impact imo and commercial/industrial fishing has had a major part in this, sea anglers and charter skippers in certain specific small localised areas are also not entirely blameless in the past, including myself taking home huge and not needed catches of cod from the wrecks in the early seventies. Being a realist steve i dont expect to much improvement in my lifetime but that is no reason not to try do something i think could maybe help give later generations better sport from the shore, and who knows just might give me a chance of looking forward to a few days of better quality angling in my retirement days? cheers..........