Pike matches, good or bad?

[fenboy]

Budgie, of course it wasn't aimed at you. I was just going off at a tangent from your comments.

I've only been on this forum for a couple of weeks and virtually everything you have posted has seen me nodding in agreement.

 

I disagree with you on only one issue: deep hooking. I think it is much more dangerous to pike stocks than just "another issue" re. pike fishing.

 

From what you write, I'd hazard a guess that you're the last person in the world to deliberately deep hook a pike. But I feel you're being too kind to some of your fellow pike anglers - who do.

[Dick Dastardly]

I am sorry for being so touchy Fenboy.After having trouble trying to make myself clear in a debate with Poledark I just felt that once again my comments were either not being read properly or not read at all! Due to the nature of debate things are often sugested to encourage the exchange of ideas but this can often (it apears) be taken out of context when using this medium.

 

Your comments about deep hooking are of course correct and it is wrong of me (not knowing you) to brand you the same as others.I have come across a lot of people who carry the "instant strike" "deep hooking" banner but do so out of fashion, all the time really ignoring other important issues as well as these most important of all.

 

I brought up the subject of lure damage not to "nock" the method or the anglers who use it but purely to point out that in my experience as a user of lures as well as baits that they are not totally damage free,a point your post agreed on.

 

Because so much nocking does go on these days we are all perhaps a little to quick to assume and go on the defensive,I know I am.

[Newt]

Lure matches would certainly reduce the number of deep hooked fish since it is rare for them to swallow a lure that deeply. And lure-only matches work fine for boat matches. Probably also good for shore based matches if the folks involved were all stalking but that could be awkward. Good idea but most likely not feasible. Certainly a good idea for pleasure anglers who want to minimize the chances of seriously hurting/damaging the fish.

 

So you are pretty much left with static bait styles. Deads or lives but basically fished in place.

 

The reality of this is going to be deep hooked fish. Even if you take every precaution and strike early, there will be a fair number of takes that you couldn't notice until the fish had a chance to take the bait down deep. Which brings me (finally) to the point of my even posting here. Revisiting an idea I've tried before and gotten very poor response on.

 

I think we can all agree that a fish like a pike is going to take a bait deep in the throat or gut at times. Yet when I've asked about the use of treble hooks for rigging the baits, I've been told it is 'more efficient' or 'easier' or 'more likely to result in a hookup'. All of these comments are probably quite true. But ......

 

I've read on here that most pike anglers posting to AN prefer to strike early even if it costs them fish. Wonderful attitude if true (and it probably is). I do not understand why these same folks aren't interested in figuring out rigs that are much safer even if maybe less efficient and I have my doubts about them being less efficient.

 

I have spent the majority of my life in a culture where taking fresh water fish for the table is the norm. Likewise, one where treble hooks are in widespread use for a large number of species. Better hookup percentages if you don't know much about alternative rigs and better for holding paste style baits. Most carping in the US is done with trebles in fact. I grew up using them but at this point in my life, I don't own any and don't intend to.

 

For every fresh water species I've tried that has a mouth design that includes a hinged jaw, a circle hook does well. Good lip or scissors hook set in almost all cases and even if swallowed, rarely hook deep but rather will slide out of the gut and catch in the jaw.

 

For some reason that I really can't fathom, the circle hooks just don't seem to be worth some experimentation by fresh water anglers - even those who do use them in salt water. I've sent hooks to a few UK anglers (and most of them do some pike angling with static baits) and I really don't think any have made much effort to use them enough to make them work. They do behave a bit differently than conventional single or treble hooks but they also do work. They are mostly self-hooking as well so should suit the folks who like to wait before striking.

 

Given that a pike deep hooked with a treble is probably a dead pike; that a pike deep hooked with a single may be in trouble although not quite as much as with a treble; that circle hooks do catch fish and almost always in the lip, I'm at a dead loss to understand the near-total resistance to their use. Certainly you may have to get accustomed to circle hooks. Certainly you may have to modify your rigs to make them efficient. So what??

[markward]

What a load of cr*p more fish will be harmed by the catch at all costs mentality that seems to be prevailant nowadays then on pike matches. These matches and the people taking part probably contribute more than the posters here to the ACA so if it was to go tits up l wouldn't have a guilty conscience about not supporting it. With most things nowadays you don't have to like/do something if you didn't want to and a few of you seem to have made that decision. But it always good to look at these matches from the outside with bad previous experience tinted glasses and not know what goes on today.

 

Maybe my decent salary prevents myself from waiting to strike because the money is immaterial and l take part to fish waters l am not a member of. Beats poaching them though!!!

[Polly]

BAD!!! full stop.

Mustn't get back on that gravy train, cannot face any more humble pie.

[mark barrett]

mark with all due respect you are completely talking out of your ar5e and your own post confirms it. the catch at all costs mentality does more harm than pike matches. there is no more catch at allcosts than a pike match, cos if you dont catch you dont win, theres no ambiguity there.

secondly i have fished in three matches and done well in one and i saw at first hand the lengths that some anglers were going to make sure of their catch.

i have also sen the following : bechcasters with a ciomplete lack of indication system, light leger rods to be useed, keepnets staked out in a match where livebaiting is not allowed now what do you suppose tht was goin to be used for. anglers with no forceps or idea how to unhook pike. 1 marshall for 50 plus anglers, no proper retention items sacks etc. that list could go on and on but i will leave you with this one from a water that i used to fish.

this water was a large and weedy gravel pit and i used to fish it a lot. one season the owner let some anglers from the midlands organise pike matches on there every month. up untill that time the pike were in reasonable condition. when the pike matches started for two weeks after i was removing traces from pike that had got into the weed and snapped the line because it was no where near strong enough. i used to use at least 15lb line, i doubt that this was even 10lb. this happened after EVERY match. i have seen some good venues in the fens ruined by these matches and i am sory mate but i HAVE seen it and i will NEVER believe that a pike match is a good idea.

[Peter Waller]

markward:

What a load of cr*p more fish will be harmed by the catch at all costs mentality that seems to be prevailant nowadays then on pike matches. These matches and the people taking part probably contribute more than the posters here to the ACA so if it was to go tits up l wouldn't have a guilty conscience about not supporting it. With most things nowadays you don't have to like/do something if you didn't want to and a few of you seem to have made that decision. But it always good to look at these matches from the outside with bad previous experience tinted glasses and not know what goes on today.

 

Maybe my decent salary prevents myself from waiting to strike because the money is immaterial and l take part to fish waters l am not a member of. Beats poaching them though!!!

The catch at all costs mentality applies to pike matches, hence the critiscisms.

[markward]

Well Mr Barrett my ar$e speaks a lot of sense in my eyes and the missed runs and no fish on the bank for the last 30 hours in pike matches confirms this. The statement yourself and others are making is that the matches are a major cause of cruelty and bad angling because of the potential of financial gain when l suggest that you should look to the actions of your average angler. Far worst behaviours would be view if you were to invite fifty Joe Bloggs to a lake without the lure of financial gain. In the matches l fish they are well marshalled and the persons taking part are regulars who know by the amount of matches taking part they will qualify by the end of the season. What does it matter if you have 20/30 anglers fishing under the banner of an ACA match or on their club book on the lake. You get to$$ers in every aspect of life and l am sure some may live close to you that may not be able to swallow the cost of a match without recouperating it at some stage. But the organisers of the match, who fish under the banner of the ACA and should agree to the priciples of the association as they have to be full members, should be able to spot this behaviour and the person told to modify it or to f off and not come back.

Keepnets were(are) an accepted form of retention device until the fish was weighed so for this observation l can't see a problem.

During your three whole visits to matches l am sure you gained a marvellous insight into what goes on/how people behave or did you spend the six hours trying to catch fish to win a bit of money??

[mark barrett]

okay mark first things first. you state that your matches are well run, if you say that is true then i have no reason to doubt you, but then can you honestly speak for ALL other matches? my impression of matches was actually not made entirely from the three i fished in. i live in the fens and most weekends there are matches on either the sixteen or forty foot drains. where i fish for zander a lot is the middle level main drain, the route i take means that i drive most weekends the entire length of the 16 foot drain. that means that i get to see at close hand the beachcasters, keepnets( i shall come back to that one) and leger rods being used. i have also seen it at the three matches i fished. for the record you dont have to be constantly scanning the bank to know that the steward is only visiting rarely. i fished two of these matches because my mate needed a partner for them, he will tell you that it was always under a degree of suffrance.

 

finaly you state that a keepnet is a recognised means of retention, yes it is but only by the la las like yourself that go match pike fishing. pike are not suitable for keepnets and the fact that people would rather us a tottaly unsuitable keepnet than spend £10 and get a couple of sacks tells more about the people that go pike match fishing than i ever could hope too :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[markward]

Mark l never have used keepnet and with the joyous invention of the mobile phone stewards can be summond rather rapidly after tempararily retaining any fish in large carp sack. I don't think this unsuitable and how many fish that you have caught have laid up in the margins when released? Laid up in a sack or eu naturel? You were suggesting that they were being used for livebait retention, that are totally against ACA rules, but with the facts presented l am glad you found another way to attack their presence.

 

With the stating of your geographical location l can understand (due to many malicious rumours) the basis of your concerns but in all aspects of life don't tar all with the same brush. I can only defend matches that l have taken part in and these consist of around 25 anglers with 2-3 stewards armed with mobile phones and walkie talkies patrolling the banks. I would personally stand up and state that the fishes welfare is the anglers top priority and l even considered returning a heavily spawn bound 16lb fish, without weighing it in, last season when the steward appeared behind me after seeing the netting of it from across the bay.

 

We are not all bad!!