Jump to content

Is identity an illusion?


The Flying Tench

Recommended Posts

First, group identity. I may feel strongly that I am part of a group, family, club or nation, but someone else may say 'they are nothing to me'. It seems to me that is our choice. So group identity is not automatic.

 

But what about personal identity? I may feel that I am the same person that did some good or bad deed in the past, and therefore feel it right that I should be rewarded or punished. Someone else may say 'that was a different person, not one atom of me is the same.' Admittedly there is a continuity, but if, for example, I don't have a memory I may well think it preposterous that I am punished for something that was done by someone seemingly quite different from me.

 

And what about the future? Why should I care about what is going to happen to some geezer in the future? For example, if I smoke? Why should they matter to me any more than any other old geezer?

 

So is identity an illusion? We can buy into the concept if we want to but, as with group identity, it's our choice, our construct. Or is it more than that?

john clarke

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Tench,

 

Rather heavy question. I have to tell you straight away there is no answer to your question. The element of time changes the answer.

 

The concept you develop about yourself that evolves over the course of your life is your "personal identity" and changes with time. This may include aspects of your life that you have no control over, such as where you grew up or the color of your skin, as well as choices you make in life, such as how you spend your time and what you believe (location, location, location).

Most of us are herd animals. Nothing wrong with that. Our sociability makes us happy to walk an extra mile to help a friend, makes us keen for teams and political parties, and makes us fiercely protective of kith and kin. Not only that: tribal solidarity of the more noble and high-spirited kind has led men to sacrifice themselves altruistically in wars again and again. (intentionally left out religion, we don't need to go there again and again)

I think it is probably right that our herding instinct has been imbibed and imposed and punitively enforced from infancy. The innate nature of such beliefs are not to be trusted. Those beliefs may be modified in us by the learned experience we call “common sense”, but I’ve never been sure for myself. Common sense includes a wide variety, education, experience, etc.

 

Phone

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Interesting philosophical question.

 

I recently had a fairly unpleasant medical procedure.

 

I was conscious throughout. But sedated. Apparently I complained of discomfort part way through and my sedation had to be increased.

 

I have no memory whatsoever of any of this. The last thing I remember was the third syringe of sedative going into my cannula while the doctor talked to me. The next thing, they reversed the sedation and it was all over. It could have been horribly unpleasant, I don't know. I don't care, I don't remember it. I didn't care beforehand, I wasn't going to remember it. But my actual self, at that instant, might have had a terrible time.

 

I think memory has something to do with your question.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A favourite subject of Hindu and Buddhist philosophy and one which I'm sure an acquaintance of mine (who used to be a Hindu monk but is now a hippy singer) could discuss for hours.

More recently, it has been addressed by neuroscientists like Sam Harris.

You can disappear up your own backside on this one. Self is a construct of consciousness and doesn't exist outside of that. Consciousness is a product of the workings of a physical brain which changes over time. Does that mean that you are the same person that you were 10 years ago? Are you still responsible for the actions of the you of 10 years ago?

It depends....

  • Like 1

Species caught in 2020: Barbel. European Eel. Bleak. Perch. Pike.

Species caught in 2019: Pike. Bream. Tench. Chub. Common Carp. European Eel. Barbel. Bleak. Dace.

Species caught in 2018: Perch. Bream. Rainbow Trout. Brown Trout. Chub. Roach. Carp. European Eel.

Species caught in 2017: Siamese carp. Striped catfish. Rohu. Mekong catfish. Amazon red tail catfish. Arapaima. Black Minnow Shark. Perch. Chub. Brown Trout. Pike. Bream. Roach. Rudd. Bleak. Common Carp.

Species caught in 2016: Siamese carp. Jullien's golden carp. Striped catfish. Mekong catfish. Amazon red tail catfish. Arapaima. Alligator gar. Rohu. Black Minnow Shark. Roach, Bream, Perch, Ballan Wrasse. Rudd. Common Carp. Pike. Zander. Chub. Bleak.

Species caught in 2015: Brown Trout. Roach. Bream. Terrapin. Eel. Barbel. Pike. Chub.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A favourite subject of Hindu and Buddhist philosophy and one which I'm sure an acquaintance of mine (who used to be a Hindu monk but is now a hippy singer) could discuss for hours.

More recently, it has been addressed by neuroscientists like Sam Harris.

You can disappear up your own backside on this one. Self is a construct of consciousness and doesn't exist outside of that. Consciousness is a product of the workings of a physical brain which changes over time. Does that mean that you are the same person that you were 10 years ago? Are you still responsible for the actions of the you of 10 years ago?

It depends....

I was thinking of Sam Harris and Dan Dennett.

 

I don't know if Sam has written a book on this yet. If you can find Dennett's book "Kinds Of Minds: Toward an Understanding of Consciousness" in your library it's worth a read. Better than "the begats". ;-)

The problem isn't what people don't know, it's what they know that just ain't so.
Vaut mieux ne rien dire et passer pour un con que de parler et prouver que t'en est un!
Mi, ch’fais toudis à m’mote

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You might try looking up 'Social Identity Theory' and 'Self Identity Theory' and then 'self-categorization theory' but once past wiki, you'll need access to an academic library to get any further in, and like most social psychology it's often turgid reading.

 

One's own sense of self is tied to how you see yourself in relation to those who you identify with, that is, shared values and meanings and equally those who's values you reject. Unless you live up a pole, it's nigh on impossible to have any sense of identity that isn't to some extent dependent on those you chose to identify with and to a lesser extent those who you rub shoulder with every day, like colleagues or close family.

 

You're also a product of your experiences and those in turn become part of episodic memory which does affect your values and behaviour. You may well have a different memory today of something you did twenty years ago and as a result you may think differently now than you did then. How that memory is remembered can be altered by the situation you recall it in, so in fact, every time you recall an event, something you may even consider life defining, it will be modified according to the social representation you are currently in.

 

You're still you though.

 

You can't remember everything you did, but as someone (smarter than me) once said, you cannot recall everything you've ever eaten any more than everything you've ever read (or heard), but they still have made you what you are today.

><((('> ·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`




¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯ ><((('>

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You might try looking up 'Social Identity Theory' and 'Self Identity Theory' and then 'self-categorization theory' but once past wiki, you'll need access to an academic library to get any further in, and like most social psychology it's often turgid reading.

 

One's own sense of self is tied to how you see yourself in relation to those who you identify with, that is, shared values and meanings and equally those who's values you reject. Unless you live up a pole, it's nigh on impossible to have any sense of identity that isn't to some extent dependent on those you chose to identify with and to a lesser extent those who you rub shoulder with every day, like colleagues or close family.

 

You're also a product of your experiences and those in turn become part of episodic memory which does affect your values and behaviour. You may well have a different memory today of something you did twenty years ago and as a result you may think differently now than you did then. How that memory is remembered can be altered by the situation you recall it in, so in fact, every time you recall an event, something you may even consider life defining, it will be modified according to the social representation you are currently in.

 

You're still you though.

 

You can't remember everything you did, but as someone (smarter than me) once said, you cannot recall everything you've ever eaten any more than everything you've ever read (or heard), but they still have made you what you are today.

That depends. I once had a shipmate that had total recall of the KGV version of the Bible. He could recite it from Genesis to Revelations, front to back, back to front or just pick a random verse. He could not do it with any other book though. I also sailed with another guy who had the strange talent of being able to tell you what day a date in the past fell on. He could not explain how he could do it though.

  • Like 1

The problem isn't what people don't know, it's what they know that just ain't so.
Vaut mieux ne rien dire et passer pour un con que de parler et prouver que t'en est un!
Mi, ch’fais toudis à m’mote

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I was going to quote some random quote and i decided on one from winnie the pooh to confuse and get you googling for the source but some are quite good so pick one

https://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/1225592-winnie-the-pooh

 

I dont do 'what are we' we just animals with the misfortune to know life has an end and have a knack to end others prematurely because we can ,the rest of the animals just bumble about until life ends

 

I think everyone has a built in genius in something they just have to find what it is ,our eldest grandchild is a genius with numbers ,she says they fly around in her head and she grabs the right one ,unfortunately i havnt pinned down what i am best at (cutting my nose of to spoil my face rates highly) i probably will die before i find it

 

Chap down the road believes in ley lines and fairies but has not provided any proof to me to back it up ,otherwise appears fairly normal sold books about it so i presume others do but need to reassure their belief to themselves by bonding with similar types

Edited by chesters1

Believe NOTHING anyones says or writes unless you witness it yourself and even then your eyes can deceive you

None of this "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" crap it just means i have at least two enemies!

 

There is only one opinion i listen to ,its mine and its ALWAYS right even when its wrong

 

Its far easier to curse the darkness than light one candle

 

Mathew 4:19

Grangers law : anything i say will  turn out the opposite or not happen at all!

Life insurance? you wont enjoy a penny!

"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." Thomas Jefferson

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

That depends. I once had a shipmate that had total recall of the KGV version of the Bible. He could recite it from Genesis to Revelations, front to back, back to front or just pick a random verse. He could not do it with any other book though. I also sailed with another guy who had the strange talent of being able to tell you what day a date in the past fell on. He could not explain how he could do it though.

There's a difference, 'technically' between 'semantic memory' e.g. a word perfect recall of something like the bible, and the 'episodic' memory which is 'events in time' which you were a part of.

 

Having said that, whatever you have in you memory and in whatever form is part of who you are.

Edited by jaa
><((('> ·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`




¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯ ><((('>

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Unfortunately my mrs memory is shot and i hear her talking about my memories i told her in the past thinking they are hers so is she me?

Not sure memory has any credance in anything ,a 100 people could witness an event and you could get 100 variances ,you then cannot trust your memory to be an actual memory or a fabrication you think is a memory.

 

What is real?

Edited by chesters1
  • Like 2

Believe NOTHING anyones says or writes unless you witness it yourself and even then your eyes can deceive you

None of this "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" crap it just means i have at least two enemies!

 

There is only one opinion i listen to ,its mine and its ALWAYS right even when its wrong

 

Its far easier to curse the darkness than light one candle

 

Mathew 4:19

Grangers law : anything i say will  turn out the opposite or not happen at all!

Life insurance? you wont enjoy a penny!

"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." Thomas Jefferson

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We and our partners use cookies on our website to give you the most relevant experience by remembering your preferences, repeat visits and to show you personalised advertisements. By clicking “I Agree”, you consent to the use of ALL the cookies. However, you may visit Cookie Settings to provide a controlled consent.