New Species

[Steve Walker]

It's an interesting occurrence. I wouldn't want to speculate about how often new species arise from this mechanism, seems to me that it requires some quite unusual circumstances. You need fertile hybrids which are only capable of breeding with each other. Anything which genetically isolates a sub-population in this way has the potential for eventual speciation if only through genetic drift.

[corydoras]

Gozzer didn't actually say "Osteichthyes" but I kinda went with the flow.

"Fish" is also a bit simpler when I'm ordering down at the chippy.

 

BTW: Are you sure that "reptiles" is a useful term - especially when you are identifying them as a phylogenetic group that is district from "birds" like sparrows, sparrowhawks and penguins?

Afterall, crocodiles are more closely related to birds than they are to lizards

 

Then of curse, there's the Monotremes.....

They are not closely related to marsupials or placental mammals, but rather they evolved from a distinct group of reptilian ancestors. Where do we put them?

 

There's a time and place for specificity.

I don't ask for "fish" at the chippy, I always ask for a haddie.

 

Crocodiles are included in the Class Reptilia.

 

Last time I looked monotremes were mammals.

 

Warm blooded, check.

High metabolic rate, check.

Have hair or fur, check.

Produce milk through mammary glands, check.

Single bone in lower jaw, check.

Three bones in middle ear, check.

 

I would have thought the discussion of a new species might be a good time and place for specificity.

 

Must go, it's time for my dinosaur's breakfast.

Edited November 27, 2017 by corydoras

[gozzer]

There's a time and place for specificity.

 

 

That applies to pedantry as well!

 

John.

[corydoras]

That applies to pedantry as well!

 

John.

LOL. You ask "if this applies to fish". I point out that "fish" is a meaningless term when discussing biology, and now I'm a pedant.

[gozzer]

LOL. You ask "if this applies to fish". I point out that "fish" is a meaningless term when discussing biology, and now I'm a pedant.

 

That's rich coming from someone that ridiculed me for saying 'angling', and that I should say 'fishing'.

As far as most on here are concerned, we are on a fishing forum, we go fishing with a fishing rod/pole, using a fishing hook, (that's angling by the way), we buy a fishing licence to enable us to fish, for fish, in a fishery, or fish in the sea for fish.

In the context of this forum, only a pedant would, (once again), insist that there are no such things as fish.

You try much too hard Cory, there's no need.

 

John.

[Steve Walker]

It's an imprecise term, but I think that when a layman says "fish" any working biologist has a pretty good idea of what he's talking about. And in the context of a UK angler talking about hybridisation, it's not hard to narrow the likely area of interest down to a few relevant cyprinids.

 

As for the Telegraph article - it's a while since I was an undergrad, but Agnatha were not considered to be even colloquially "fish".

[corydoras]

That's rich coming from someone that ridiculed me for saying 'angling', and that I should say 'fishing'.

As far as most on here are concerned, we are on a fishing forum, we go fishing with a fishing rod/pole, using a fishing hook, (that's angling by the way), we buy a fishing licence to enable us to fish, for fish, in a fishery, or fish in the sea for fish.

In the context of this forum, only a pedant would, (once again), insist that there are no such things as fish.

You try much too hard Cory, there's no need.

 

John.

I'm not the only one that has made the point of there being "no such thing as fish" I'm sure Ken has too. I don't care what you call it John, but where I come from if you say "I'm just off out for a wee spot of angling" you'll sound like a pretentious knob-head.

Edited November 27, 2017 by corydoras

[gozzer]

I'm not the only one that has made the point of there being "no such thing as fish" I'm sure Ken has too. I don't care what you call it John, but where I come from if you say "I'm just off out for a wee spot of angling" you'll sound like a pretentious knob-head.

 

You're the only one I've seen mention it Cory, that's why I said 'again'.

 

I will repeat what I've said before. I've never used the phrase 'a wee bit of angling'. I do class myself as an angler, because I use a rod, line, and hook, as opposed to a net, bow, spear, or any other implement, I also abide by the rules laid down for the practise. If that makes me sound like a "pretentious knob" to some, then so be it. From my viewpoint, someone who tries to over complicate a simple discussion on an angling forum, about the very thing we all seek to catch. Then says we are all wrong in how we refer to it, is much more deserving of the title.

 

John.

[corydoras]

It's an interesting occurrence. I wouldn't want to speculate about how often new species arise from this mechanism, seems to me that it requires some quite unusual circumstances. You need fertile hybrids which are only capable of breeding with each other. Anything which genetically isolates a sub-population in this way has the potential for eventual speciation if only through genetic drift.

I disagree with that just a little bit, but this is getting into how one exactly defines a species. I'm more of a splitter than a lumper.

 

I would argue that if two populations are capable of hybridising and producing viable offspring but don't because one population has changed it's breeding season or mating displays then whilst they may be chemically fertile they are unlikely to breed with one another. In that case I would argue if that is not two different species then they are at least well on their way to being so.

[Steve Walker]

Yes, in this case they aren't capable of breeding with each other because their songs are incompatible with one of the parent populations and the other is geographically separated. In terms of capability to interbreed, I'm not just talking about cross fertility but also whether in nature they can practically do it. If in practice there is no gene flow between the populations, then given long enough they will speciate.