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Romantic Cod and Fish Populations?


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Some interesting stuff on bio-dynamics here:

 

http://www.anglers-net.co.uk/sacn/latest/i...ex.php?view=246

 

(remembering that netsmen are predators)

 

"An interesting outcome of this analysis was the vulnerability of the prey to the juveniles group has a dramatic influence on the shape of the stock-recruitment relationship.

 

The anaylsis showed that the vulnerability setting also determine the size of the spawning stock at which maximum recruitment occurs.

 

The higher the vulnerability value the higher the adult stock size at which recruitment attains its maximum.

 

It implies that the vulnerability parameter values used in Ecoism for linked adult-juvenile groups should in part be based on empirical evidence of the size of the spawning stock at which maximum recruitment occurs, not solely on biological/behavioural assumptions regarding the maximum mortality rate a predator can exert on a prey (relative to the Ecopath baseline value)."

 

 

(me 'ead 'urts)

 

Tight Lines - leon

 

[ 16. February 2005, 11:49 AM: Message edited by: Leon Roskilly ]

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leon, comparing fishermen to drug dealers and pimps is ludicrous im sorry!

"Colonel Gadaffi, knows more about fishing than the whole of westminster put together"

Alex Salmond 2004 SNP Leader

 

"Forza Dons"

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thurso angler:

leon, comparing fishermen to drug dealers and pimps is ludicrous im sorry!

er, I didn't.

 

I merely pointed out (admittedly in a dramatic way) that the 'right to earn a reasonable living' is not an absolute right, but is conditional upon the way in which that 'right to earn' is practised.

 

If it is based on something that enhances the public good, or even doesn't detrimentally affect the public good, that is fair enough.

 

But if it is based on something that damages the public interest, then that 'right' needs to be examined.

 

Just because you can go and haul fish out of the sea for profit, doesn't mean that it is right to do that!

 

It depends on whether it is done responsibly or not (intentionally or unintentionally).

 

Men with nets are entitled to earn a reasonable living taking an ecologically sustainable harvest from the sea, and I'm with them 100%, and want to see them able to continue doing that (I buy fish from a local netsman that I believe does that!).

 

But when they have taken more of the publicly owned resource than the sea has to give, and demand to go on taking more (like a farmer having sold the harvest and now eating next year's seed), claiming that they have a god given right to earn a reasonable living by doing so, then they will lose any good will they may feel entitled too.

 

Too often, when faced with the biological necessity to cut back on effort, the cry goes up 'I have the right to make a living'.

 

Not always!

 

Tight Lines - leon

 

[ 16. February 2005, 12:09 PM: Message edited by: Leon Roskilly ]

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Thanks Leon,

 

I have been in and read the info. very interesting and very workable.

 

Let's hope the powers that be read and absorb this type of information.

I fish, I catches a few, I lose a few, BUT I enjoys. Anglers Trust PM

 

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http://www.petalsgardencenter.com

 

Petals Florist

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My point is leon, drug dealers and pimps intentionally go out to ruin, wreck, destroy, exploit and kill people; fisherman go out to catch fish.

 

Hardly a fair comparison of how to make a living.

 

I hope you are not unfortunate enough to have a loved ones life destroyed by drugs! but if you are i doubt you will go about comparing them to fishermen!

 

Leon i can tell you are very passionate about saving yours and our pastimes and interests but be carefull you dont become so involved in it that you become irrational and blinkered, as you may find less willing to listen.

"Colonel Gadaffi, knows more about fishing than the whole of westminster put together"

Alex Salmond 2004 SNP Leader

 

"Forza Dons"

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Leon,

 

I take your point about what you meant in regard to drug dealers et al. Calmed down a bit now. I know you did not mean offence but I've been to one fishermans funeral, and most the fishermen I have known really have been decent folks. Judging from Thurso Angler's comments, I suspect there might be a big divide between how anglers from different parts of the country would view the remarks.

 

Fair enough, It's obvious that a common resource cannot survive with technology these days. I doubt many would disagree with that. The point is how you manage it; to rely on people to behave "well" ( the blame game way of thinking), does not work.

 

You need enforcement and that enforcement has to be done by people with an intimate understanding of whats going on; not some remote goverment agency, or people that imagine many Scots fishermen would know you were talking about them when you say "Netsmen" .

 

The white rag issue is interesting as anglers are among the few who know its an issue at all. Goverment agencies may have identified it as a general problem but its sea anglers that know whats really going on in their area. Going to take an angry @winter@ or other local to identify what the problem is with HIS local bait beds. It'll need local anglers to enforce it too, not some hopeless "Ranger" appointed by an agency.

 

The early warning sign for white rag are there now. Slow growing, and in great demand. Also difficult to farm as the long planktonic phase and the slow growth will make the economics hard.

 

As they dig them out the price goes up and the diggers move further afield. @winter@ tells me you can get £1 a worm now; at some point it becomes a commodity worth digging elsewhere and shipping to the NE, then the beds in much remoter areas get trashed as well. All we need now is for some new technoloical method of getting them to come along and hey we have a big problem before the agencies even wake up to it.

 

Just seen your link to the CEFAS report and I can see my heads going to be hurting too :) , already is with Ikeas finest kitchen installation instructions! :D Whos got the asprin?

 

Quick glance at it and I noticed a suggestion that the channel cod might be doing ok, despite the warming because of the amount of dead invertebrates ( from other fisheries, on the seafloor) thats not likely to last. Wheels within wheels... Maybe I misread though , need to sit down and reads the thing properly later on. You seems to have managed to reduce it to a rebuttal of "netsmens" claims that global warming is responsible for all the problems I doubt many think thats all there is too it.

 

BTW, a question; the Irish sea cod are at least three seperate spawning groups, with the IOM one being small. Even if the fishermen behave like angels and the TAC's are rigidly adhered too, what happens if one of those stocks has a few bad spawning years, gets fished heavily on the feeding grounds along with the other two, yet the Irish sea total catch is within limits? Who will be to blame when it collapses; the fishermen who know they are in a madhouse and are just trying to survive or the regulators who know the irish sea stock is multiple but treat it as one?

 

Marine reserves, large areas closed forever and the introduction of sustainable methods, preferably with static gear is the only way i can see out of this and thats a mountain to climb that will need the fishermen onboard IMHO.

 

Later, Chris.

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thurso angler:

drug dealers and pimps intentionally go out to ruin, wreck, destroy, exploit and kill people; fisherman go out to catch fish.

While I'll grant you the 'drug dealer, pimp, fishermen' comparison is designed to be sensational, I wonder about parts of your statement.

 

Staying with the drug dealers where I think the comparison is most accurate, they set out to make a living. They know but simply don't care that the way they choose to make their living exploits people and wrecks lives.

 

A good comparison to what is happening world wide with commercial fishing is the 'buffalo hunters' who practically wiped out the bison that had roamed the American west in their millions.

 

When it was a matter of native Americans taking animals for their needs and using all they killed the bison population did well. Humans killed some, wolves killed some, winter killed some, but they thrived.

 

When hunters with efficient guns started killing them for their hides, leaving the remainder to rot, and had thought only for the money to be made from selling lots of hides, the species was hunted almost to extinction within a space of about 35 years from 1850 to 1885.

" My choices in life were either to be a piano player in a whore house or a politician. And to tell the truth, there's hardly any difference!" - Harry Truman, 33rd US President

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I agree with all you say newt, and i am the first to say somthing has to be done, but i take offence to labelling fishermen like drugdealers etc, i guess its just my understanding of them having grown up all my life in a busy fishing port.

 

I just hope one day we can all meet up and have a good yarn (talk) over it as i feel points get missed or misinterpreted when chatting like this on a forum.

 

thurso angler

"Colonel Gadaffi, knows more about fishing than the whole of westminster put together"

Alex Salmond 2004 SNP Leader

 

"Forza Dons"

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(me 'ead 'urts)Mine to :D

 

That is the problem, whole picture is so large and encompassing, it is difficult to pin down any particular facet.

 

I was not referring to any particular size of companies or trawlers, or indeed to any individual party involved.

 

For hundreds of years humans have been reaping the rewards from the seas, but since the invention of mechanical power things have definately got out of control.

 

Boats were no longer dependant on wind power and could put to sea at will.

 

I realise the large trawler companies have been for the best part eliminated from the industry.

 

At a guess I would think that the total tonnage of fish caught has dropped also, I am sure one of you could prove or disprove that statement.

 

But at the end of the day we still face a problem of declining stocks.

 

If those still employed within the commercial sector stood shoulder to shoulder with anglers, solving problems jointly we would all stand a better chance of achieving some form of conservation.

 

Recent history ( I refer to Steves' postings and those from the channel islands amongst others ) show all to vividly that there is an element of the netsmen who are not willing to work with us and those who are still prepared to grab what they can for short term gain.

 

It all makes my gesture of returning 98% of what I catch look rather stupid. However being thick skinned I will continue in this pratice hoping that those who I meet whilst fishing will follow my lead and join us in trying to pass onto future generations a viable situation.

 

[ 16. February 2005, 01:20 PM: Message edited by: Ken Davison South Wales ]

I fish, I catches a few, I lose a few, BUT I enjoys. Anglers Trust PM

 

eat.gif

 

http://www.petalsgardencenter.com

 

Petals Florist

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