Guerilla

As others have said, there's no hard and fast rules but generally pike tend to pick up baits side on, along the flank of the bait. I guess this comes as a result of striking live fish by rapid acceleration from the bottom of the water and by hitting side-on, there's more fish to aim at an less chance of missing? Anyway, once it has hold of the bait, the pike spits it out and sucks the bait in again, this time head first, before swallowing it. The strike timing issue is often debated due to this 'double strike' but also many pike like to pick baits up before moving off with then to consume them in their 'lair.' Again this is by no means certain and I think you can guess how difficult this all is to gauge, especially as others have mentioned water type, conditions, time of year, rigs, hook size, hook placement etc etc. As Andy mentioned and I've read on numerous times, the Jardine snap tackle treble system was intended to be 'instant strike' as once you get an indication that the bait has been picked up, it is in a fishes' mouth, so it seems logical to strike then to me!

John, do you experience any line skip with the ATTs? I'm wishing I tried the old Optonics now but the thought of all that trailing cable really put me off. I bought them with the intention of getting some XLs or Compacts if the large roller worked but I opted for vibratory sensors in the end. I doubt they'll prove as reliable in the wet as my trusty GFs though. Interesting that you haven't had problems with braid, especially Fireline as it's renowned to be of a very small diameter, or is that Whiplash? Maybe my problems are heightened as the braid is very new and still has the waxy coating on it. Oh, and I agree with you that there seems to be too much lateral movement on the roller. I think the width of the wheel should be increased slightly to ensure that when you sit the rod down into the alarm, the line will sit exactly where it needs to. Anyway, in view of the comments, it seems that cost and reliability in all weather conditions are obviously high on the list of requirements.

Yes, don't the ATTs and Steve Neville alarms allow for this by offering rollers with more/fewer magnets? I'm sure it'll increase sensitivity but if I'm right in my theory about the magnet requiring an initial inertia to overcome, this surely would only heighten the problem? Tinca, whilst you have a GF alarm apart, when re-fitting the line roller, do you notice the roller wanting to spin until the magnet reacts against the sensor, this creating a resistance? I'll check again tonight if I get the opportunity but from memory this was my experience when messing with o-rings. That too is true but I work in an industry where we have literally hundreds of o-rings on the shelf and having a good working knowledge of them I was able to get various sizes with different cross-sections to try but alas, I couldn't get satisfactory results. The larger the cross section = larger diameter, but as you quite rightly said, there was scope for the seal to create friction against the alarm casing. I even tried two seals and tried running the braid between the two but this was also unsatisfactory. Putting the butt ring up to the alarm and my GFs in 'High' sensitivity proved better than otherwise but still I didn't have 100% confidence. It's worth noting however, that with mono I didn't have a problem although I didn't experiment with it too much. I think Budgie would be able to suggest this too, but the problem I was personally trying to solve is better solved using a different type of alarm; Delkim or audible rear drop-off, but the ultimate problem of line skip on a small magnet line roller is still a concern for some of you.

I'm not disagreeing with you about the diameter, circumference and ultimately the area of contact between the line and the wheel, but I think the effect of the magnets and their sensor also comes into play here, too. The initial force required to overcome the effect of the magnet adhering to the sensor must be considered. In the Optonic, which uses a vane to break a light beam I think(?) this isn't an issue. By putting an o-ring within the groove on my GF alarms, not only did I increase the diameter, circumference and contact area, but I also increased the friction. This still didn't solve the problem for me so I came to the conclusion that the magnets were the problem, rightly or wrongly?

I'll just reiterate my point; line skip when using braid with an open bail arm even if the butt ring was tight to the alarm is a problem, just like the angled rests. I bought some 'old skool' Optonics and sounder box to try the big wheels but didn't bother in the end; I'm not convinced that roller wheels are the best technology for this form of indication personally, so it might be trying to solve a problem that others have already solved albeit at a much more expensive price (Delkim). Not entirely sure I mentioned it before but many people swear by putting an o-ring seal in the groove of the roller wheel. Didn't solve the open bail problem for me but may help when fishing mono with angled rests? That extra friction from the seal on the line may be enough to overcome the inertia and register a movement. Otherwise is it possible to put 4 magnets on the roller wheel or would that just add to the inertia and be over-sensitive? I thought the suggestions Budgie made were very good and valid. A niche product would be a unique selling point for sure a there are lots of alarms out there. Korum and Chub at the lower end of the market along with ACE and the new Nash Siren ones have all bee released at the top end of the market with great public fanfare during the time you've owned GF. Something cheaper, well built, in the UK, good customer service and warranty with a niche aspect would be great IMHO. Custom swingers/drop-offs could be that selling point!? As Budgie said, the hard core tackle tart carpers are surely an unlikely market so its be better to suit the needs of the more general coarse/specimen anglers who would like one alarm to suit all their fishing.

Slightly off topic but when trying to visit the gfbitealarms website, Google tells me that the webpage 'may harm my computer'.

Thanks, exactly what I needed. You think 10' is long enough Budgie? Mine tend to come in around 18' as a rule but then again I do have lots of wire to make them from!

EDIT: Title is meant to read 'Anglers' but I can't edit the title? [Additional Edit, I've altered the title for you ] All, Just been reading this thread and it mentions pike trace length. http://www.anglersnet.co.uk/forums/Pike-tackle-t2557660.html I stupidly left my copy on the train but I seem to remember a review of branded pike traces within the mag. Don't suppose anyones got a copy lying around and would be able to let me know the brands and their respective trace length? In relation to this, what length trace do you think is sufficient for deadbaiting, as a general rule? Rob

It certainly would be for me. If you do hope to sell them with a drop-off indicator or pike fishing the line clip would need to be braid friendly. Despite owning some, I've never used the GF bobbins but I don't think the line clips would be of any use with braid. Stainless Steel Ball Clips, PTFE coated clips or even better, a linegate would be useful, as well as alot more weight at the bobbin head as standard. I've experienced problems with the small line wheel when fishing with braid recently. I've tried putting an o-ring on the wheel to increase its diameter and add a bit more friction but to no avail. Back to baitrunner function when on the river with the butt ring tight up against the alarm and it works a treat. The small line wheel works better with my Stren Sonic braid than it does with the standard pike fare of Power Pro braid. Don't know if it's the waxy coating on the PP as my braid is newly spooled this season. Good luck with the venture.

[quote name='Brian Carragher' date='Nov 4 2010, 08:55 PM' post='3360883' The best way I've found for distance casting even with big soft baits is to rig your lead on a John Roberts run ring and fish it running paternoster style with a length of mono tied to the run ring and lead about equal in length to the length of your trace so that both weight and bait are pretty even at the end of your line Eric Edwards talked about this at the PAC Conference. The paternoster link was the same length as the trace. The lead was a lump of 4oz lead beaten into a banana shape. The lead was then cupped around the bait and the two were tied together using PVA mesh. Simply nip the mesh onto the top treble, wrap the bait and lead together with a few turns and finish at the bottom treble. Eric could hit 100yds using a spod rod.

I saw Julian Chidgeys presentation at the PAC conference. Whilst jigging for Pike in Germany, large bream were hooked neatly in the mouth on numerous occasions. Given the brackish water he could only presume that the Bream were used to eating such crustaceans. I'm sure many of the U/L guys have had similar results, too? Maybe not as uncommon as you'd think but still not the best method of specifically targeting Bream! I've seen Bream foul hooked by lures when running a lure deep, through a shoal, but I don't think for one second they were actively trying to feed on the lures?

3rded!

Well, when a man of Budgies experience and knowledge regarding pike speaks, it's best to listen. It's good to hear that you are competent at handling them, but as Budgie mentioned, a heavy lead is a prerequisite, even if using a float, for sensitive, instant bite indication and therefore instant striking. I asked a similar question regarding bobbins/swingers/drop-offs a while ago as I thought with a swinger setup, you'd be able to see what the fish was doing with the bait after you were aware of a pick up. A drop-off only indicates a run and quite simply therefore no further feedback is demonstrated; The fact that the drop-off has 'dropped' means it's time to strike regardless. They really are the most efficient and versatile indicators, particularly when used in conjunction with a 3oz lead at the range of 30m you're fishing. As you're catching reasonable double-figure pike to 12lb, they're almost certainly female fish, therefore you're fishing the right spots. Where there's a female, others don't tend to be far away so keep trying the spots you're successful in. You've experimented with different sea baits already. Have you tried fresh, coarse baits? Have you tried popping-up baits? Have you examined your captures in terms of the time of day they've been caught? Pike tend to have a 'feeding time' window and this time is obviously the best time to catch them. Some suggest that pike like to feed at dawn and dusk, when the prey fish are most active but the lack of natural light can make handling more difficult. There's many things you can try to entice a bigger fish, but if you're catching good sized ones (doubles are good sized) then you're doing something right, but please take Budgies advice regarding line strength and bite indication. It will help preserve pike stocks and allow those fish to grow as big as we'd all like them to be. As for the baitrunner query, some like to use this method, particularly in flowing water, but pike can be intolerant to changes in resistance. An open bail arm and big lead (and large run ring) means that if a pike picks up a bait then the anchored lead will remain where it landed and the pike can freely strip line from the spool without any resistance so should be completely unaware that the bait has a trace in it. Theoretically, using a baitrunner, the pike would be able to move the bait around only in a circumference the length of a trace without taking line. Once the fish has moved this far, the baitrunner will engage and the extra tension required to overcome the clutch can spook a pike into dropping the bait, knowing that something is wrong. I'm sure Budgie can give many examples of this happening in his fishing, which is why he uses the methods he does as well as the rigs he does.

Hmmm, the move to ban trebles was met with some controversy from many camps, particularly the PAC as it appears that they were not consulted prior to the enforcement. It is my understanding that the treble ban was to protect predators as it was widely thought that singles do less damage than conventional snap tackle setups. This is obviously not the case if single rigs are more likely to be swallowed, although in this unfortunate instance, surely single hooks are likely to give the fish more chance than a treble assuming its size is comparable? You did mention sizing a bait to the "small single hook." What sort of bite indication were you using? You mention an alarm with regards to one capture, but another only suggests seeing the rod tip knock. It may have just been two instances of bad luck; it's the start of the predator season and the water temperatures are still high (15deg here last weekend) so perhaps the fish were just aggressively feeding and you were simply unlucky. Given that baliffs were present for both deep hooked fish, I hope the fishery takes note. Incidentally, there is a very active thread discussing single hooks for pike (again) here, after it was discussed at the recent PAC meeting: http://www.totalcoarsefishing.com/cgi-bin/...?num=1285526402 and a possible hooking method could be to hair rig the baits using tags, such as here (assuming OBH allow this?): http://www.piketrace.co.uk/hairrigs.html

Sorry for the late reply. Echoing Andys message; Thanks for the feedback. Sorry I didn't mention the dredged bank but not knowing how many would be drawing, nor where the exact locations of the pegs were I didn't think they'd be that far round. I can imagine it was pretty bleak there, with such few fish showing! Shame the bream didn't show else I'd have thought there would have been some decent weights. Having never been interested in the match side of angling before, your report hasn't done anything to encourage me otherwise. Still, you live and learn, as they say.