guernseybass

whoa chaps, you may have lost the battle but you haven't lost the war yet . 40 cm IS better than nothing as is the mesh changes, DEFRA could have just listened to the commercials and the ICES scientists and changed absolutely nothing. also the RSA bag limits are also a good thing, as they will prevent those guys that are taking 5 or 10 bass every trip - if that is introduced in GUernsey as i hope it is, it will stop the catches of 30 plus spawning bass a day by so called RSA's I support the license and will continue to do so - it formalises our position as stakeholders. that said, organised deliberate public disobediance ( group illegal fish-ins etc) would draw media and hence public attention to the RSA cause once we are formal stakeholders, the position must be stronger surely. i don't think this is a time for blame, regrets or retreating but a time for unity and advancement. march on Downing street i say. MArk

sounds very familiar, if you ever go fishing with Steve be prepared not to hang around a second - he's always first off down the beach, first off the boat etc. first into the pub sounds like a funky trip fellas. GB ps - WHAT was that Steve ? somekind of low-tech communication antennae ?

thanks, that was my point - if 1/8 of your catch is fish of 5lb plus, then the effect of these catches ( being 100% over 5lb) must be magnified eight times on the spawning biostock. say if the channel catch is 1300 tonnes per year and one eighth of that is spawning biomass of 162.50 tonnes. then the 35 tonnes taken each year in guernsey is 20% of the spawning biomass. now i know thats very rough figures, and most of the fish will have spawned once or more before but how long can the stock sustain that direct harvesting of its spawning biomass ? GB

wurzel - the mark was discovered 3 years ago by accident by a potter. the local commercial fisherman said last year that they felt the fish would have shoaled up in previous years elsewhere - one previous example given was the schole bank in the 90's i think. it was also felt that eventually they would move on ( maybe due to the continued harrisment they get ). this is the third winter on the mark though. despite the vast numbers landed, apparently most fish are sitting on the bottom not feeding. a local skipper i spoke to felt that they are not spawning but waiting to move to deeper water to spawn. hopefully the tagging will show if it affecting the breeding stock biomass which is my main worry. the problem we RSA guys have here is that the fleet has no other winter catch to target and ICES say there is not a problem with overall stocks (based on landings not actual sampling) so the Government are not interested in a closed season. if people are concerned they should write to the Guernsey Press newspaper - only strong pressure from both the local and visiting public will change anything here, but as the UK controls the 3-12 mile limit not Guernsey you need to write to DEFRA too. what may happen in Guernsey ( what we campaigned for also ) is a RSA bag limit of 2 fish in 24 hours and a new offence of buying unlicensed fish. our main argument against this exploitation of the shoal continues to be that although it may be only 0.5% of the total biomass, if there is one breeding fish to 10 schoolies, you may be taking 10% per annum of the entire breeding stock, but the lads in Sea Angler are not listening. on ething i would ask you wurzel, is what % of your bass catch is typically schoolies and what % would be breeders of 5lB plus ? Mark

i have never spun at night but have caught a few bass up to 6.5lbs on popper and crease flys so theres no reason why a disturbance lure wouldn't work. this year i also caught bass in total darkness on lightly weighted clousers and deceivers dead drifted in rips over shallow water and currents in gullies. bass have big eyes and excellent night vision and a lateral line which feels disturbance in and on the water. just remembered actually that last summer in cape cod, 7 of us fished several nights on the beach and caught striped bass ( a close relative) long after dark on weighted flies as well as poppers. i think we caught 50 or so up to 10lbs in a couple of hours each time. i'd advise checking out the place throughly at night first, knowing the movement of the tide first and not using any light or fluorescence at all if you can help it. Mark.

errr, how about adding some practical advice to that sewinman - i.e. how and where a beginner ( I assume) can find wild river trout fishing, in December, accessible in a short train ride from SW london/Surrey ? please enlighten me too GB

John, As an RSA i support the pullout of the CFP, and we ( saveourbass.com) pretty much do too i think. I think marine resources are too delicate for their management to be compromised by differing needs of differing countries. I am fully in favour of europe as a Free Trade Area but each country should be able to put its own interests first in regard to certain things seen as in the National Interest - defence, law & order, and other stuff such as fisheries and farming. In the same way that the EU should not decide how we defend our country, they should not manage our fisheries either. In my opinion that was the major mistake of the EC - and it is one that will become exacerbated as it expands, is that in the rush to promote economic growth through free trade and the movement of labour, the need of individual nations to protect their national interests was surrendered. The UK realised it years ago, France and Germany now in deep economic recession are only just realising it, and are finding they built an EC which is not structured to help them out now they are in economic trouble. I would say bugger Eastern Europe, and hold out for a renegotiation of CAP and the CFP in return for the rebate reduction that France and Germany need. GB

I'm curious, why does the timing and motivation matter ? surely law breaking is law breaking ? and i think the number of EA prosections this year has increased massively for estuary netsman in the SW, and for unlicensed freshwater anglers across the country to the extent that the EA now releases monthly figures of fines convictions. I also remember reading of earlier crackdowns this year on commercial ports so given all that, i think its just part of a trend rather than temporary making the timing irrelevant. what was their defence, by the way ? GB

if bass catches weren't generally down there wouldn't be bass anglers in their hundreds on the net and in magazine grumbling. bound to be a few good catches, but teh consensus seem to be catches have been falling sharply for years. and if cod stocks were largely down to climate ie. temps in the north sea rising, how does that effect western channel cod ? where the temps have hardly changed. I read a that the theory is that plankton is moving north out of the northsea but i can't see how that affect round here - could it not be also a result of overfishing for sandeels etc that cod feed on. didn't we also have herring shoals too that cod would have fed on - especially up your way. ? GB

Wurzel, straight question - what do you blame for the decline in cod stocks and other species then ? including lower anglers catches of bass in England, Wales, France etc. and what do you think could be or should have been done? GB

Thanks for your extensive and interesting post Chris. to answer the above : 1. I meant Guernsey's entire commercial annual landings ! not anglers catches. 2. no, but they are likely to given 1. above if it continues long term unabated. I accept Jaffas point that they have been doing pair trawling for 25 years - but on this scale ????? surely not. In Dr Pawsons presentation he said that in the early 90's 250/300 tons of bass per year were landed. In 2002, it was nearer 1300 tons due largely to pair trawling - thats almost 5 times more and regardless of nationality, it can't be right that one or two operators take such a large share, mainly at the detriment of local inshore fleets - hence my comment about a quick buck ! let alone the long term effects on stocks, bearing in mind that CEFAS stats are based on fish landed rather than actual stock sampling. 3. I totally agree and while the BMP may not be perfect, it is pointing out that our fisheries are of serious economic worth. For there to be self regulation in the UK there would have to be track record of responsible self restraint before a free hand is given, which is what occurred in those countries i believe. Guernsey does have UK as well as local fishery protection vessels due to the proximity with Jersey and France, and as stated in my post above the local fleet are showing restraint over these spawning stocks, and are taking us anglers out so we can tag bass for future local studies on stocks, so in a way they are also a role model for the UK. more of it I say. GB

my experience is that shore angling is mostly working class, but boat angling is a mix. i also think that flyfishing is a much more working class activity than it was, especially with sea naglesr turning to SWFF and coarse anglers FFing for pike, perch chub, barbel etc. that said i have quite often met posh people coarse fishing. GB

interesting that the consultation document has a proposed date for the introduction, as well as a draft of the ministers approval at the back of it I thought not usual surely ? GB

well said there Sam, i think that goes for both sides too. good thread chap. Interesting the other input about costs, forms etc too. Its clear to me that such operators are not where the real problems lie in our fisheries but with more the deep sea boats and pair trawlers etc. not to mention the CFP. If we renegotiate the CFP, prohibit these factory ships and pair trawlers, reduce bycatches, increase regulation etc then hopefully there will be more money for these small local operations, and more of them too, along with greater employment in recreational fishing and tourism for depressed rural (coastal) areas. GB

Guernsey for one. other areas that have some form of self regulation or have shown organised restraint are the Faroes, Norway, The Falklands, many parts of the NE US (Maine for example), Guam, Japan and New Zealand. GB

Jaffa, As i said i judge GP on a case by case basis. In this case i would not and do not condone putting peoples lives at risk. I agree with most of their aims but not neccesarily their methods - you are a commercial fisherman aren't you - so do you agree with everything commercial fisherman do, do you ? like your 'colleagues ' in Shetland on the other thread ? I would hope not although i note you've all gone very quiet on that one ! not a condemnation in sight huh ? The fact that it perfectly legal, accentuates the need for people do do something about it. Just because its legal doesn't mean it is right or equitable. I also note your comment about the financial hardships for the crew ! - so what about the impacts on ceteceans, bass stocks, other by catch and the livelihoods of other local commercial fisherman using more traditional methods inshore ? your logic seems to be if its legal and i can make money from it, bugger everyone and everything else, including the future. and that 'small scottish pair' you refer to have been outside our waters in the past year taking the equivalent of our entire annual landings in a matter of a couple of weeks before moving on elsewhere. Hence our spotting for them and french teams - incidentally with the co-operation of local commercial fisherman. I'm interested so please tell me why should the profits of one company and 8/10 fisherman take away the livelihoods of 100's of CI families ? As long as you continue to be primarily motivated by money and self interest at all costs to others then you have no right to be trusted by anglers, the British people or its Government either. If the UK fleet are unable to self regulate or show restraint like other countries fleets do, and prove it then naturally you must be restrained to protect the interests of everyone. In no other area would a government let a single sector exploit an essentially free natural resource unchecked and unregulated - farmers and water companies to name but two face heavy scrutiny, so why shouldn't commercial sea fishers ? due to the problems of the past it is understandable that Government and the RSA lobby feel that a rebalance is desirable to safeguard stocks. And due to those problems, including shetland again for example, if anything the burden of proof and trust is on you rather than us. The BMP is a first small step in that rebalance and to making sure our fisheries are managed sensibly for the long term benefit of all rather than just those with the capital to make a fast buck, as in the case of the pair trawler operators. GB

Glad to hear its been considered. If you need any help in relation to CI anglers give me a shout. GB

Jaffa, i don't see commercial fishing as evil at all, its a everyday part of life as everyone, myself included enjoys fresh fish. however i do see it as overindulged by Government, underenforced, short termist and irresponsible. I do understand the necessity of it, and the financial and physical hardship of the job, but due to past problems and potential future ones i feel it should be reigned back a bit thats all, and i am not convinced by the CEFAS stats and neither are the Irish among others about bass sustainability particularly given the cod experience. I am not only concerned about bass either, the sand-eel and anchovy fisheries also need to be addressed. In regard to Greenpeace, i concur they can be fickle being dominated by the far left. I judge them on a case by case basis. My comment about the scots pair trawls were based on my involvement in 'spotting' them. I can tell the board ( from the horses mouth) that the reason French pair teams have not been tackled is due to lack of intelligence on the ground in France. In the UK, GP know where and when these Scots boats refuel, land and where they are headed through a network of information providers, making them easier to target and follow. The GP boats can also refuel at any UK port without problems. Sadly thats not the case in France. Greenpeace cannot afford to send a boat and crew on a 600 mile round trip out to the western approaches on the hope a French team may or may not be there, but they can afford to shadow a Scots team from port and back. GB

hear, hear. and how the hell did they avoid Jail ! - in what other field would a 3.4 million pound fraud result in just a fine. disgraceful. I hope the CPS appeal.

I think we should all make it clear to DEFRA that for it to succeed it must apply to all EU vessels. I would not want to see UK vessels restricted and an open hand given to EU boats. As the 6-12 mile limit is open to the EU member fisherman we need agreement at a European level once the UK restrictions are in place. In regard to the petition, i think its something we anglers (and BASS/NFSA) should start thinking about - judging by the success of the saveourbass.com petition, we would have the support of many French, Belgian and Dutch Anglers. Perhaps in the Spring we should have a rally in Brussels to present it - a bit like the Irish had for the Drift Nets. Mark.

yes. doh !

Last week a 29lb 3oz bass was caught on rod and line off Brittany, France. The weight has been verified and the pictures are in our local papers. The guy caught it on a lure from an inshore boat. I will post the pics once they are online. Mark.

Cod Stocks to you mate. remember when the commercials and the scientists said they were AOK when the conservationists warned off unsustained fishing ? what happened - " its sustainable, its sustainable, its sustainable, oh no it isn't oops we were greedy and we cocked up, oh they're almost all gone, oh dear our industry is in trouble please help us". Its utterly tragic that you guys just never ever learn do you. all you see is pound signs today. Oh, and Pugs, Greenpeace are FOR sustainable fishing ( & farming) - they supported our Guernsey bass campaign and are doing a lot of good work against the scots pair trawlers. GB

well several of the commercials murmured agreement about better more efficient methods, and a couple told me so afterwards - so maybe you're not very representative of bass fisherman. i have to say i thought they were quite intelligent, so possibly thats true. and what i like or don't like doesn't matter, its getting realistic data that counts and Dr Pawsons methods have been criticised by the Irish, the French and independant UK scientists. Hence the reason he is now an ex-DEFRA advisor i suspect funny how the only people who say theres not a problem have a financial interest in it huh ? GB

For the first time, Guernsey Anglers, Commercial fisherman, Sea Fisheries Dept and Government Members met to air their views on the management of Guernsey and related areas bass fishing. We were also 'treated' to a 20 min presentation by former ICES and CEFAS scientist Dr Mike Pawson, who stated : 1. the BMP is intended to favour anglers 2. and is nothing to do with conservation but is about financial benefits for the Govt. 3. Regardless of what the anglers say, stocks are increasing and we have a sustainable fishery in the UK. 4. the larger number of smaller fish caught by anglers is due to their success, they are more voracious than larger fish and so take your bait/fly first. 5. no other stakeholders have been invited to contribute to the BMP 6. The renewal of the irish ban was political not conservation based - and their scientists are part timers ! Following his presentation, I couldn't hold back and stood up and spoke at length, contradicting him also at length. I also questioned his measurement of the increasing spawning bio-mass through recorded landings, stating that surely more landings could mean more efficent netting through GPS etc, and wouldn't it be better just to sample regularly. He did not answer that and said instead that it has no track record and would not be useful. I asked why don't we start one ? - silence. next question. so there you, go, that's what we're up against, so please please don't underestimate the opposition out there, and make the effort to take part in the UK BMP consultation. details of which can be found on www.ukbass.com NB - We will be contacting the Govt here to formally record our objectiosn to Dr Pawson as an 'independant expert' and suggesting that they speak to independant marine biologists etc. Mark. ps - unlike the Sea Fisheries Officers and the Politicians etc, he shyed away from shaking my hand at the end.