gozzer

Could that be classed as the ‘white male privilege’ I keep hearing about? John

Thanks for trying to explain my position Phone, but you've got somethings the wrong way round. It's not so much the 'culture' of the carp anglers in general, I have a few acquaintances, that are carp mad, and we still talk amicably it's a mixture of things. It's not the fault of a virus that it inflicts itself on other people, but we still want to try and control, or eradicate it. We can't eradicate the people who catch and spread the virus, only try and get them to accept more hygienic, and common sense methods to help reduce the impact of that virus. Carp are the virus, anglers are part of the group that wilfully spread it. I've tried over the years to explain my feelings to this group, as well as, clubs, 'fishery' owners, river authorities, and the environment agencies, but while many say they see my point, I'm afraid they are only too willing to accept that angling is now becoming an artificial pastime, worshiping money and the ego, but without, for want of a better word, 'soul'. The creation of overstocked artificial, predominately single species waters, for one. I would feel the same whatever the species, even my favourite roach or tench, it just happens to be carp that are singled out, because they are easy to breed, grow large, and are virtually indestructible in comparison with many other species. I cannot understand, or accept, the appeal of waters that have no natural balance. Throughout my angling life, I have seen waters change, and the predominant species change within them. Sometimes it's been because of changes in the effects of the weather. Long dry summers like the mid 70s, saw an explosion of fry, and very good, (for the time), match weights in the autumn/winter, and the following year. This was then followed by an increase in most predatory species, pike, perch, chub, and even catching roach and bream on small live/dead baits. The waters then over time attained a new, 'natural balance', not always exactly the same as before. Eventually the whole thing levelled out, until the next change in conditions. Sometimes it was a manmade incident that altered that balance, such as pollution. Then, my view was that the water should be left until it could support aquatic life, and then, only then, should there be a restocking programme, just enough to 'kick start' the natural cycle. This last point was dismissed by those who wanted large stocking programmes, to produce instant results, which brings me to my next point. I don't usually refer to these waters as 'commercials', because we have always had waters where we had buy a permit to allow access to fish. The main difference is that where it was once done to create 'pin money', to bolster the family income, sometimes with the added inclusion of a bacon sandwich and a cuppa on arrival. Now it's an out and out business concern, a part of the angling 'industry'. Where once anglers paid the money to allow access to the water, and then their success depended on their skill, luck, or lack off. Now anglers pay not only for the right to fish, but as part of the fee, expect a guaranteed catch, regardless of their ability, and actively complain on line if they don't receive the 'catching experience' they've paid for, just like buying any commodity. Almost instant results, regardless of any ability on behalf of the angler. I've never believed that fish exist purely for the catching pleasure of the angler, they are part of a great cycle of life that encompasses all our native wildlife, and I felt privileged to be able to share in, and be a part of it, if only for a while, before returning to my inner city life. I could go on and on, and as some on here will attest I often have, but will finish....for now, with one more point. While Cameraman and I agree on most things, I, (so far), have refused to patronise any overstocked commercial water since my early disappointing forays in the 90s. While I can understand his views on the safety, and convenience aspects of these waters, especially for the young, and, I guess, the older generations, I still can't understand why they have to be so overstocked. I see it as a dumbing down of the whole thing, and with many of the youngsters I've help over the years, I have found that the ones who have it too easy when they start, (double figure carp, and big bags of fish spring to mind), are the ones less likely to stay with angling. Those who start 'small' and feel the need to 'grow' and expand their angling experiences over time, are the ones that I've seen continue over the years. In fact many of the youngsters I helped 20, 30 years ago, are still at it. It's a standing joke within my family that I have often been stopped by someone, who I don't recognise, but obviously recognises me, (I guess I must have looked pretty old 30 years ago). They then start to tell whoever is with me, the story of how I helped them when they were kids. It's a nice, if somewhat embarrassing situation to be in, but it makes me feel pretty good inside. John.

Doesn't all that swerving make you feel sickly Paul, you have to change the subject as soon as you haven't a reply. I can't seem to get it through to you, Lord knows I've tried, I voted the way I did, because I only had two viable choices. One to spoil my paper, or to vote for someone who had done well for my local community, I chose the latter. I've told you this several times Paul, but you don't seem to take it in. Oh and by the way, why do you refuse to say how you voted in the GE, Paul. Come on don't be shy, tell us how you voted, and more importantly why you voted the way you did. John.

Of course I'm not saying that they are "on the same financial playing field", whatever that means, Paul. They are two completely different places, and as such you can't make a genuine comparison. For a start, two of them are towns/cities, where as the other is a county. When you have areas with housing priced like this.. https://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/Sandbanks/4-bed-houses.html it's bound to have an effect on house prices as a whole, how many areas in the North East have similar house prices? You inferred that the whole place was awash with money, (spin), while I pointed out that it is like most other places in that there are those who struggle. The locals have the added problem that they are in the commuter belt for the London area, which raises prices. It doesn't help those who have to live on wages that aren't on a par with those of London. That's a problem that such as Hartlepool and Redcar don't have, yet. There the prices are governed much more by local factors, than they are by those of a metropolis miles away. Many of the Dorset occupants are retired, or have moved there after retirement, and have invested financially in the areas, which again puts those who live there and have 'ordinary' jobs at a financial disadvantage. It's not all milk and honey, as you tried to make out, there are those that struggle. Just have a look at the job scene and you will see that between the £30,000 and above wages, there are plenty of £9/£10 ph jobs, some even less. Does that fit in with your inference that it's "swilling" I assume you mean 'swimming in cash'? When my relatives came up to visit, they always used to stock up on some things that were half the price of down there. If you are going to make a post, then tell it how it really is, not with some added slant that twists it to show only one side of the situation, the side that you want it to. John.

I can see your point about safety, and almost guaranteed to catch, but it's the obsession with carp, and other exotics that are not indigenous that really angers me. I see them as just an ego boost for those who need to catch, and of course a cash cow for those who provide them. The level of stock in some of these waters is obscene, often over 10 times a naturally sustainable level. I have used an analogy on here before, and I believe it still holds true. If someone wanted to make football 'more interesting', would it be ok to double or even treble the size of the goal? Would the same apply to increasing the number of stumps in cricket to 5 or 7, or trebling the size of a dart board, or the size of the holes on a golf course? The best strikers of a ball, would still score more goals, the best bowlers take the most wickets, the best darts players the most 180s, and golfers more successful putts, but it would give the less able more chance of achieving something. Angling is the only 'sport', as some like to call it, where it is made easier, and lauded as a great achievement if you win. Every one I asked agreed that if those changes were made, then it wouldn't be football, or cricket etc, but accepted it in angling. There have always been waters where there was a glut of stunted fish, but nature would eventually balance it with an increase in preds. Now it's all artificial, even to fishing indoors! I feel it's only time before those who would try to ban angling, see this as the perfect opportunity, to show that angling cares more about the anglers, than the fish, or the flora and fauna that surrounds it. I made the point about these waters causing the spread of non indigenous species into new waters, in the earlier thread. I see this as a real problem that can only get worse, you can rid a small Stillwater of a nuisance species much easier than you can a river, especially when it's the angers themselves that cause the problem, then refuse to aid any cull that might help. It's ok to 'cull/kill' anything with fur or feathers that might feed on fish, and help maintain a healthy balance though. The Environment agency are also a major player, they have failed in their main purpose, to protect the water and wildlife of this country. My grandson who's 5 in a couple of months is nattering for me to take him fishing, I've bought a 6metre whip to start him off, but I'm struggling to think of where to take him, it will probably be a stretch of canal that hasn't yet fully been polluted by carp. Sorry for the rambling, it's always been a problem of mine. John.

Did you even look at the report Paul? I wasn't going to waste my time coming back on this thread, but I have relatives living in Wareham, and they are certainly not "swilling in cash", whatever that means, nor do they feel like they are living in an area comparable to Beverly Hills. Sure there are parts of Dorset that are occupied with what you might call "money people", Sandbeds etc, but there are also parts where those lucky enough to have a regular job, earn at, or just above, the minimum wage. In other words, it's similar to many other places, part are pretty affluent, some other parts struggle, and others 'get by'. But as you are an avid reader of the Independent, I understand your attempts at putting 'spin' on a subject to show things the way you want to see them, after all, it's what you are used to. Your attempt to compare the demographics of two Northern cities to those of a whole Southern county falls down before you even start. John

Weeks? Months? Try years phone, it must be a few since I went on a good rant about your beloved crap. Now I’ve got the bit between my teeth it could be like another ‘Cod on Brexit’ thread. John

Although that was posted with slight 'tongue in cheek', Phone knows that I rarely laugh where carp are concerned Ant, it wasn't always like that though. From my first real 'monster' carp, that I stalked for several summer months back in my early teens, (all 8lb of it), to the late 80s and early 90s, I thought of them a 'mystical', almost 'magical', special fish. I was working on a job down south about 92/93, we had just finished the job, and my boss, also a keen angler, suggested that we stop on our way home, and have a look at the lakes Billy Makin had built. I wasn't too impressed with the look of them, or the lay-out. I realised that they were newly dug and needed time to mature, and 'naturalise'. What I didn't realise was the stock levels of these so called fisheries, this was brought home to me during several trips to similar waters over the coming few years. Even as a match angler back then, the whole concept disgusted me. As some of my club mates drifted towards them, and more of our matches were booked on them, it was the final nail in the coffin regarding match fishing, I just packed it in, after nearly thirty years. Now they are like a disease, spreading right through the whole of the UK. Overstocked in waters dug on flood plains, and stocked into waters with direct access to rivers. My stillwater fishing has almost stopped, because of lack of choice, through idiotic stocking practices. There are few, if any, rivers in my native Yorkshire that don't have carp in them, and now the same stupid actions of water owners, clubs, and anglers alike, are responsible for the emergence of catfish in the same rivers. I'm glad that I lived through what I see as the best years of angling, that's even including blank sessions! It was a time when there was a big improvement in tackle, but not the merchandising on the scale it is now. When angling wasn't considered an 'industry', and anglers weren't targeted as the 'bad guys', but thought of as being slightly eccentric, and maybe a little mad. I've always said that if the overstocked 'catching ponds', were the only thing available, then I would hang up my rods for good, and I've been very close to that a few times. Wow, it's a while since I've had a good rant about the pollution of our waters by carp on here, it feels pretty good to get it off my chest again, even if the soap box seems a little higher, and at my age I get a little dizzy standing on it. John.

Hi Bob, I too remember hearing about this when I started my apprenticeship in 1965.I was never sure whether it was a true account of the strike, or had been embellished over the years. Your post prompted me to do a bit of digging, but I haven't found much as of yet. Some of the stuff I've read seems to point to the strike causing the delay in completing the 'Pendennis Castle', which was launched on 24/12/57, handed over in Nov 58, with a maiden voyage in Jan 59. http://www.theyard.info/ships/ships.asp?entryid=1558 I can't seem to find out about any particular strike, but maybe if you try on this forum someone will be able to help you http://www.belfastforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,73380.165.html?PHPSESSID=d3ccf88dfe295ba0618d8540e8d1296a I found a few interesting things during my searches especially this one about the first apprentice strike at Harland and Wolff http://www.bbc.co.uk/northernireland/yourplaceandmine/belfast/harlandmemories2.shtml Just had a thought, didn't Fred, (clifftop) work in the shipyards in the north east? Maybe he would have heard something about the strike. He hasn't been on for a while, I hope he's OK, what with the fires in his area. Good Luck, let us know if you find anything, John. Edit, I got so engrossed in the history of Harland and Wolff, that I forgot to post about Cammell Laird The main thing that I found was this from Hansards https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1956/may/17/cammell-laird-shipyard-dispute No mention of chalk lines though, I'll keep digging.

You've missed the most potent of all carp baits Phone, it's the one that always seems to attract them. It's any bait that that is on my hook when I've been fishing for a much more worthy quarry, such as roach, perch, bream, tench, even pike! In fact anything but a bloody carp. John.

That ones easy to answer Paul. Although I don't buy any newspapers, I do read your posts, and almost every quote you post is from either of those two papers. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if you posted more newspaper quotes than anyone else on here, and everyone has the same bias. If you didn't post so much from them, and used a little common sense, as well as a little balance, then I wouldn't have been able to make a judgement on them. John.

Read my edit, are you sure you read it perfectly Paul? Yes I can edit as well as you can, I don't wait a couple of hours to do it though. John.

I don't mind telling you at all Paul, I don't buy any newspaper, the clue was in my post, "or any paper for that matter". Didn't you bother to read my post either, before commenting? As for me looking for something that agrees with my beliefs, I'm the one who tries to get you to add a little balance to your posts, remember? Your the one who won't post anything that doesn't fit in with your ideas. It's called 'confirmation bias'. John.

I don’t blame them for kicking such as the (non) independent, or the guardian etc, they never print anything but negative spin. I can hardly believe anyone could take them seriously, or any paper for that matter, they must be pretty gullible. John

That was published a year ago, didn't the fact that it said Theresa May as PM give you a clue? Did you think that 4th Feb meant it was published tomorrow? Did you not bother to read it as usual, relying on a social media 'friend' to feed you the 'truth'? Or did you hastily need to post something to try and cover up a non story that you had just deleted? John.

Is it the thought of Brexit, or the Coronavirus that's causing the need for the tablets Martin? John.

I do realise all that phone, but it's fairly new territory to most of us over here, and as such I'm more concerned than I would normally be. On a lighter note...….While watching TV earlier it was pointed out that the UK citizens who were flown in from China today travelled from the airport to the quarantine building by coach. The coach company was called 'Horseman' and there were four of them. Make of that what you want. John.

Well you missed out Paul, there was singing, a fantastic fireworks display, and much merriment as the alcohol flowed. I didn't feel much like celebrating, being a fairly cautious bloke, my feeling was more one of apprehension. I was wondering what the remain groups can think of to try and scupper any chance of success. They have already cost the country billions, and I fear that they will cost us much more over the coming years, putting the blame on Brexit, rather than their own selfish actions. John.

We were planning on going to York on Sunday for the ice sculpture exhibition, but I'm not too sure about going now. I wish the powers that be would tell us the whole story instead of just bits. We know the infected couple stayed in the Staycity hotel, and were taken to Hull, and then on to quarantine in Newcastle. How long had they been in the UK, or York, where they had travelled from, or where they had been before? I know the risk of infection is very low, but we're told that the infection is contagious even before the symptoms show, so there is a reasonable chance that they could have infected hundreds of people during their stay. The longer they have been here, the more chance of passing on the virus. Having just got my COPD under control, and at my age, I doubt I would stand much of a chance of fighting off the virus, plus I have a 4 year old grandson who was born with Noonans syndrome, who means the world to me. Logic tells me the chances of contracting it are minute, but a part of me asks is it worth the risk? The coming days, and weeks will provide a clearer answer, but for now I'm erring in the side of caution. John.

My home town has been invaded by the press from all over the place today, because Andrea has organised a party. As a long time resident, I'll take it upon myself to invite Paul and his mates, his posts show he needs a bit of cheering up. https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/politics/a-leeds-mp-is-organising-a-brexit-day-celebration-party-for-january-31-1-10184841 John.

If the dye is introduced to the maggots after they have left the meat, then it's just dying the skin, and will easily come off on your hands. If it's introduced to the meat while they are still feeding, then the maggot itself is dyed, and there's less chance of having dyed fingers. Annatto paste was smeared onto meat before a 'blow', to produce a yellow/orange colour maggot. I'm pretty sure that the chysodine dye that was found to be carcinogenic was banned, but I might be mistaken. I do remember an alternative called, (I think) Kent dye, was used at one time. During my match fishing days, especially on the Trent, when a half gallon of bronze maggots was considered barely enough, we were all stained an orangey yellow. Me being a smoker had nicotine, and the maggot dye on my fingers, and on my moustache, people thought I smoked much more than I did. It took a lot of scrubbing to clean the stuff off my fingers and even then it didn't all come off. I remember some of the good match anglers of the time, eventually getting cancer, especially those who also ran tackle shops. Kenny Kendal, and Jack Watson from Leeds were amongst them. Having said all that, when I go fishing now, I always get 'half and half' red and bronze, unless I'm wanting to turn my own casters, then it's whites only. I suppose old habits are hard to kick. John.

A few years back, I took my wife to see some friends in Tadcaster on the river Wharfe. While they went shopping I made my way to the bridge over the river to see what was happening, and took a couple of sausage rolls to eat, and share with the resident chub shoal. While watching about a dozen or so chub scrambling for each piece of sausage, I saw a large pike slowly drift across the current to position itself just downstream from the shoal. Before it could get close enough to strike, they moved off upstream. The pike followed at a distance, and went into a large patch of weed. A few moments later the weed bed erupted and clouds of silt spread out across the area. Then a chub of about 1.5lb shot out of the cloud and swam to the rear of the reassembled shoal. There was blood flowing from a large gash behind its dorsal fin, it looked very much like the fish in your picture. It looked agitated for a few moments, but within a couple of minutes, it was competing with the other chub for my free offerings. I watched it for another 20 mins or so, the bleeding stopped, and the fish carried on acting just like the rest of the shoal. It's incidents like this, along with several others, that have convinced me that fish do not 'feel' pain in the same way we do. No amount of 'evidence' created in an artificial environment has/will change my belief. John.

Bloody hell Phone! I hope all went well with the treatments, and it's behind you now. Take care mate, John.

I saw this on another forum, and thought it worth sharing, https://www.anglersmail.co.uk/news/cancer-risks-anglers-bob-roberts-84673?fbclid=IwAR30kOHjj0zJ8grZs8XvSWnssWcOwHLMxoAl9rOPqa1wuKWRondPeuvm1HM Although I've always worn a brimmed hat, and used polarised sunglasses, I've rarely used sun block. It was something rarely mentioned back in the day, but seeing this gives food for thought, and should give us all a warning about the dangers. John.

Back in the day, I seem to remember reading of eels being caught by 'dibbing'(?). This was threading worms onto wool, no hook, and when the eels teeth got caught in the wool they were lifted out. Maybe other members 'of a certain age' can confirm its true, or is my mind playing tricks? John. PS, just done a quick search and it was 'babbing' for eels. http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ww2peopleswar/stories/95/a9036795.shtml