andy_youngs

Nicepix, It's not me that got a bee in his bonnet about the hypocrite word, it's the mods. As far as I'm concerned, that word gets thrown across the floor of the House of Commons every day, so I don't really see that you have anything to reproach yourself for. It's just that generally in life, if you sling mud, then you lose ground. I have never been a member of the BCU, and I have no intention of joining that organisation.

OK

Correct! If you throw stones at me mate, you better make sure you don't live in a glass house, cos I'm gonna be throwin those stones straight back at ya!

Oh right. I guess that's why the thread has had over 1,700 hits, and more than a 100 replies. That is a bit strange isn't it? Nah, don't fancy that. Nah, don't fancy a barbel society meeting either. That's just an excuse to get some poor sod in front of several hundred militant anglers so he can be publicly humiliated. The barbel society need to sort their affairs out if they want to engage with me. Of course, I'd be happy to engage with the barbel society on an equal footing, for instance in front of a live audience, so long as the audience comprises a fair cross section of the public including canoeists, sea anglers etc.. In fact, I had a similar offer from Martin Salter some time ago, but unfortunately, he welched on the deal.

Well ok Anderoo. I'll recap again. Both rivers are Special Areas of Conservation because of certain endangered species that live in them. Barbel were artificially introduced into both of these rivers, and they predate on all the endangered species that live there. The barbel fishermen then turn around and use very aggressive tactics to try to keep canoeists off both rivers by accussing them of being 'environmental vandals'. Do you understand now where all the hard feelings are coming from?

But surely the Wye is a public navigation? I thought it was enshrined in statute law? I think the problem you're experiencing redfin is that the Wye has become a 'honeypot' site for canoeing. Similar to the Waveney. And the reason for that is a few selfish bar stewards on the Hampshire Avon and the Wensum. Because they wanted me to buy something from their shop in order to join the forum. And I don't want to give them my money. They can talk to me on here, or You Tube if they want. But I am not going to pay for the privalege of being banned from another forum.

But we're only on page 10 here and now. This is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. (I think you know what comes next)

I wish your interpretation of "the law" would either put up or shut up. Because until they do I shall continue to break it (with impunity). I've withdrawn the "fascist" comment, on condition that Nicepix withdraws the "hypocrite" comment (not that he's done that yet). The "xenophobic" comment, I agree, is a little harsh because it was directed at an individual rather than a public figue or organisation. I'm happy to issue a public apology for using the word in this way, but at this stage, I am not yet ready to issue a retraction, because I still think it's true and in the public interest. You may recall from post #76 that the other word the mods were concerned about was "lying". I agree that it's not a nice word. But I've only used it in connection with Govt organisations. I've never used that word against an individual. It's true, Ive accused the Environment Agency of lying. But I see no difference between that and accusing the British Govt of lying over the Iraq war. It's also true that I could have mollified them with a euphomism like "mistaken", or "spoken in error". But in view of their inactivity on the canoe access front, coupled with their enthusiasm for stuffing our rivers with non native fish, I chose not to employ a terminoligical inexactitude.

Why thank you ayjay, finally a bit of honesty. My hunch is that the 1500 fingerlings are just the tip of the ice berg that is visible to you at the moment. And English Nature gave us on the Wensum a written assurance that there would be no more barbel introductions into the Wensum way back in 2001. But they broke their promise. That's how it works. A controversy blows up, the EA say OK, end of, no more introductions. And then 5 or 10 years later the stocks start to dwindle barbel fishermen start to lobby intensly, the Govt changes, and a new policy emerges.

OK, I'll withdraw the 'fascist' charge, so long as Nicepix withdraws the 'hypocrite' charge.

And your stance of intolerance makes you a fascist.

That's a load of ****** as well. I posted this video on youtube yonks ago, and nobodies ever taken any legal action against me (much to my disappointment).

I'm not wasting my time looking into that. I suspect that roach were always present in the river and that any roach stocking that has taken place was to replenish a population which had been depleted through unnatural human intervention. Why dont you answer a perfectly straight, direct question first, about how many barbel have been artificially stocked into the Hampshire Avon? For goodness sake, I'm only asking for an honest answer a straight question. You talk about roach stocks in the Avon, which Avon? there a loads of them.

Erm right, and you're not a bully?

OK, I will make a freedom of information request to find out the barbel stocking history of the Hampshire Avon. I'd like to know whether these stocks have really been "self sustaining" over the last 100 years. I would have hoped that in this day and age you should be able to just punch a button on a Govt website, and hey presto, the records appear. After all, if you don't know the stocking history of a river, then you really can't make a balanced judgement about whether the river should continue to be stocked in the future. I'm sure that the Environment Agency have meticulous records about all the stocking that they undertake, including the barbel stocking on the Hampshire Avon. They just don't publish this information as a matter of course. You have to ask for it, so that's what I'm doing ...

Splendid defence Chesters, well done .... support from an unexpected quarter. I think what's happenning here is that a nest of vipers has been spitting venom at you, bacause they feel vulnerable and it's their last line of defence before having to deal with the horrific consequences of canoeists and kayakers navigating the Wensum and the Hampshire Avon. Because my original intention behind this thread was specifically about these two rivers. And the barbel fishermen don't like it. But rather than reply honestly to my request to disclose the barbel stocking history of the Hampshire Avon, which is what sparked the whole thing off, they have instead chosen to try and marginalise and ridicule both of us. Don't worry about it mate, I'm sure the truth is abundantly obvious to the masses. Andy

It's the notion that simply because a landowner permits canoeists and kayakers to pass through his property unchallenged, they're suddenly going to start pitching up in his front garden for a picnic. It's nonsense. and it's xenophobia : ie, a fear of strangers and a fear of the unknown....

No of course not. There is no distinction between canoes and kayaks. Over here, both powered and unpowered craft can be licensed to navigate the tidal reaches of a river. Above these tidal limits, so they say. you need landowners consent to access the river. I obviously disagree with this legal interpretation. One thing that I can tell you for sure, is that you are wrong with the following statement : "The only thing I can tell you for sure - you better follow the money. Canoes ain't it." My view would be, don't follow the money. Follow the ethical and moral arguments. That way, whilst you might lose a battle in the short term, ultimately, you will win the war.

xenophobia (aka = what a load of ******)

11 October 2011, AT - EA meeting : "The Angling Trust also reported that the Agency was considering giving consent to stock barbel in what would otherwise be natural trout rivers. Barbel could prevent trout from re-establishing. Adrian Taylor said the Agency would only give consent to stock barbel in rivers within its natural range and considered the balance between species’ abundance when consenting additional stocking." Interesting, trying to figure out who's in the majority, and who's in the minority

Well you won't get deleted here. Say what's on your mind.

I don't know how they do it grumpy, I just know that they produce all of these barbel, millions of them, and then tip a substantial proportion of them into ditch in norfolk. They are then fed on high protein suppliments in an unnatural environment until they attain a record weight, at which point somebody pulls them out of the river and claims the UK record. The problem is that they just can't reproduce in viable numbers. And I think we've lost our way.

Effectively Tigger, that's the mindset we're up against

Sorry about that. Had a big row on the previous thread, and hence terminated that and started this thread to try and calm things down a bit. Interesting comments Ken. I of course know that that barbel were artificially introduced into all the western flowing rivers such as the Wye, the Severn and the Theme. And the barbel are continuing to do considerable damage to the salmon stocks in these rivers. But trying to curtail the Environment Agency's zeal for barbel introductions is uphill battle. They've got this sophisticated science lab called Calverton Fish Farm, which churns out millions of genetically manufactured barbel fry every year, so they've then got to find somewhere to put them all. And the truth is that simply ain't enough native habitat to accommodate them all. So they end up going into riverine habitats to which they are not entirely suited, and that then has profound social and ecological consequences.

You seem like a fairly normal person Andy, so I doubt if this thread is for you. This thread is really aimed at the abnormal anglers that are intent on denying canoeists access to our rivers. You ask what is my view? "Just let them get on with it". Personally, I might go paddling once or twice a year. I'd just like the comfort of knowing that if I do wish to paddle down my local river I'm not going to be accosted by some thuggish landowner / angler.