Carp from the margins (flats?)

[Guest Newt]

I know this is supposed to be a fly fishing section but we seem to have a bit of a blending with the talk of floats and such.

 

I have quite a bit of water that is shallow (1-2-3 ft) and only possible to fish by wading. I imagine there are UK lakes that are the same.

 

I'd be interested in ideas from our two resident experts (or any others lurking but not posting ) on how to use spinning (fixed spool) gear, floats, and lures/flies to do this. I would expect some fairly large fish and don't see myself getting heavy-duty fly rods/reels/etc. for them but I would love a more active way of taking them on a spinning rod.

[Guest Nightwing]

Newt, try flys or small micro jigs used in concert with a casting float(see the float thread). Great for stalking, and allows the use of flies without the need for fly rods.

[Guest Mike Connor]

Well Newt,

 

I have not had much success for carp with casting floats. Nightwing apparently has done. I must admit, that the floats I use are comparatively heavy ( I use them mainly in the Baltic Sea), and smaller ones might prove more successful.

 

In the situation you describe, I would go for a fly line. You can simply present the fly better. Even this is difficult, and a sloppy cast will put the fish off.

 

In the absence of fly gear, one thing you could try, is a light to medium spinning rod, and floating dog biscuits. These can be cast fairly easily using light to medium spinning gear. If you presoak them ( just add a little water to a small plastic bag with some biscuits in it), they swell slightly ( don´t use too much water), and of course are then heavier and easier to cast.

 

Tie the biscuits to the bend of the hook with a short length of fine nylon. The biscuit should be about one and a half to two inches away from the hook. You can of course tie the biscuits directly to the hook, but this often results in bad hooking. It is best to have the hook completely free.

 

This has worked everywhere I have tried it. The best biscuits I have used, are those about one inch round, with a hole in the middle. They look rather like small doughnuts.

 

Sweet-corn, threaded onto the hook, works as well, but flies off more easily when cast, and of course it sinks.

 

Bread crust is also a very successful bait here, but is quite difficult to cast, and once wet, simply falls off the hook, if you try pulling on it, etc.

 

You could use a float and bread crust. This is often very succesful.

 

You should use floating nylon as running line. Or grease up your line with albolene, so that it floats. The last couple of feet should be sinking nylon, and I have found the "camouflage" nylon to be best here, either green or brown. But clear might be better in some places, it depends on the water in question.

 

If you "chum" a little, with some biscuits, bread, or whatever you are going to be using, in the general area for a while, your chances improve considerably. If there are areas where people feed ducks on bread etc, then try these. Carp woll often be found in such areas "mopping-up" crusts etc from the surface, and are less likely to be spooked by a piece of bread or a biscuit landing near them.

 

Carp also tend to have fairly regular "patrol routes", and if you get to know these, you will also improve your chances considerably. On onw water I fish, it is almost possible to set ones watch by the carp behaviour. Some small pods of fish move into certain bays and shallows at regular times every day. If you know these times, you can save yourself a lot of wasted time and effort. Picking out a large fish from a "pod" of fish may be very difficult indeed, and this is "easier" ( if one may even use the word in this context, using flies than using bait. Using bait, the smaller fish will usually grab it first, and the resulting disturbance, usually scares the others off.

 

If you can place a fly just right, then you can "pick off" a specific fish, much more easily.

 

Hope this helps you a bit!

 

TL

MC

If you spend some time on the water with binoculars, you can usually find a few of these "patrol" routes, fairly quickly.

 

You can use these methods for stalking, ( you have to be very stealthy, especially when wading), or for fishing the area "blind". The biscuits obviously smell and taste attractive to the fish, as do the other baits mentioned, and are obviously far more likely to be taken than a fly, in the first place.

 

Carp are very well equipped with taste sensors, and may well reject something which does not "smell nice" to them.

 

If you smoke, smell strongly of garlic, after-shave, etc etc, then avoid handling either bait or flies, ( use gloves ), this makes a big difference.

 

Woolly buggers, and similar flies, soaked in various "flavours" also work quite well. Aniseed oil, sweet-corn juice, and a few other things have worked OK in the past. Of course you will need a float in order to be able to cast these.

 

You have a much better chance of landing carp with a good fixed spool reel, with a good drag, than with conventional fly-gear.

 

Even medium sized fish put up a hell of a fight, and the first long run is usually more or less unstoppable. I have caught quite a few carp on light gear, often using a match rod and six pound BS nylon line, coupled with a good fixed spool reel.

 

However, in weedy or snaggy areas, you will probably lose a lot of fish, as if they get into cover, the line tangled around weeds etc, they will break you off. For this reason, I only use very short hook lengths, of a lower breaking strain then the main line. If a break occurs, it will occur here, and the fish will only have a short length of nylon and the hook to get rid of, and there is very little chance of them hanging themselves up on it, and dying as a consequence.

 

To date, I have never caught a carp on a spinner, or rubber fish, rubber worms, plugs, twisters, etc. This is not to say that they would not take such a bait, but it is very unlikely.

 

Carp often take a fair bit of time to decide whether to take something, and will "play" with the bait for quite a while before deciding to ingest it. Some people are apparently tempted to give baits some "movement", when a carp is nosing at them. I avoid this like the plague. Any unnatural movement at all will scare the fish off, rather than induce it to take.

 

People accustomed to predator fishing, often make this mistake. Carp are not predators, and do not behave like them. They are more or less omnivorous, with a heavy bias towards vegetable matter, but they will even take dead fish, and similar things ocassionally. I have never seen a carp actively "hunting" fish, they spend most of their time grubbing about on the bottom, in a fairly "relaxed" fashion.

 

Getting them to "chase" a spinner etc, is more or less impossible. They will turn and take a fly which is corectly presented, and looks and feels OK. Scent improves the chances of this happening, considerably.

 

Although there has been talk of some big fish here, and what sounds like fair numbers, one should realise that carp are very difficult fish to catch at all, and one good carp from a "session" is a good result.

It may sometimes be possible to catch two or three, or even more, but this is not a "usual" occurence.

 

As in many other forms of ishing for difficult fish, ( seatrout on the Baltic for instance! ). perseverance and patience, are the main keys to success, coupled with as much knowledge as one may obtain.

[Guest Newt]

Thanks Gents.

 

The area I am thinking of is full of stumps. It was logged off before the river was dammed around 40 years ago and the stumps have been submerged for all that time. Hard as rocks for the most part.

 

The area is full of carp during spring especially. Favorite spawning area. They hang around the shallows for a while after the spawning season is over.

 

No ducks being fed in the area. You have to get there by boat and then wade so not at all a popular tourist spot.

 

The shallows are anywhere from 1/4 to 1/2 mile wide and run for about 5 miles.

 

Nightwing - any color preference on the jigs? And size? 1/32 oz or larger/smaller?

 

Mike - I've tried the dog biscuits. Never had a fish pay any attention to them but maybe I was doing something wrong. I probably need to shoot some out and wait until they are being eaten before I toss mine out. Hmmmm.

 

I'm afraid my little fly rod (4wt) isn't up to a real fish though. Great fun for sunfish which rarely go over 1/2 lb. Also nice in that they are aggressive and not easily spooked. And not fussy eaters either.

[Guest Mike Connor]

Originally posted by Newt:

Thanks Gents.

 

It sometimes takes a while for carp to become accustomed to a bait. They can be induced to take some quite outlandish things however. This is usually achieved by pre-baiting, often quite heavily. I have never done this, apart from chucking in a handful of bread crusts, or dog-biscuits occasionally.

 

Some of the guys from one of my local clubs went to a great deal of trouble to accustom the carp in one of the club ponds to boilies, of various descriptions.

 

They spent a fortune on tipping loads of the stuff in there, and continued to ignore the obvious. That the carp were eating large amounts of bread, thrown in for the ducks.

 

Finally, it became necessary to severely limit the use of groundbait, as most of it was not being eaten by the fish, and was simply rotting on the bottom, and polluting the water.

 

The dog biscuits have worked everywhere I have tried them up to now, even on waters where the carp had never seen them before.

 

Sweet-corn kernels have also worked everywhere I have tried them, but the visual aspect of the take is missing here, as this is a sinking bait. Very successful though.

 

Fishing snaggy areas such as you describe, is very difficult indeed. Carp are very clever at hanging you up on a snag, and if the area is full of stumps, then you will have a hard time landing one I fear.

 

Landing even a small carp on a #4 weight, using conventional fly-gear, is likely to prove very diffciult indeed. The fish are far too powerful, and due to their unusual physiology, capable of very long sustained efforts.

 

You are more likely to damage the rod. A #4 weight simply does not have enough backbone to fight carp. You will have virtually no control at all. It would be possible to use such a rod in open water, with a lot of backing on the reel, but in a snaggy area, it is almost certain that you will lose the fish. Even in open water, it will take you half an age to land a carp on such light gear.

 

I would, in this case, try free-lining either bread or dog-biscuits, on a spinning rod.

 

You could use a float of course, if you wished.

 

As I said, I have never caught a carp on a spinner or jig, so I am unable to help you there.

 

As you have read, I am not a "fanatical" fly-fisher, and will ordinarily use anything which seems appropriate to catch fish. I do prefer fly-fihing for quite a number of fish species, but I am not completely wedded to the method.

 

In order to achieve more or less consistent success, one must be flexible. In methods as well as techniques.

 

One must also decide whether one wishes to stick to a particular method, even when it is difficult, or whether one wishes to catch a fish.

 

As a young man, I used a variety of methods, which I would now not use. Simply because I needed to catch the fish. My family depended on me catching something.

 

Nowadays I fish more or less purely for pleasure, and am not so dependent on catching something at any cost. I can have an enjoyable day out, just trying various things, and there is no pressure on me to actually bring a fish home.

 

I still like to catch them though !

 

TL

MC

[Guest Newt]

I love to catch em too Mike. Guess it makes me feel good to be smarter than a fish.

 

As for fishing the area with all the stumps - I plan to use PowerPro line in a 50lb b/s (small diameter so it casts nicely) and a short hook length of 30lb PowerPro. Rod is a 7ft carbon I use for lures and has nice backbone. I have high hopes that I can handle a large carp but, if not, only a couple feet of line and a barbless hook for him to get rid of.

 

I think one reason I've had little success with carp is lack of time targeting them. Wife loves to fish but requires activity. She will lure fish for an entire day happily but hates to just sit and watch a rod. For myself, I prefer catfish usually so when I am alone and can "bait & wait" it is usually for cats. I plan to get serious with the carp this winter though and continue into the spring and maybe thru the summer on some trips.

 

Thanks for all the tips. Fun stuff to read. And informative.

[Guest TheDacer]

Don't know if this is what you're thinking of Newt, but I'd go for the fish in the stumps with a 'hit and hold' approach.

 

Using a meaty rod and strong line, try floating a bait like Bread Crust on the surface - (is that what Mike suggested with the dog biscuits?) - and the minute the fishes lips close around the bait.. hit it and hold!

 

Don't let them get down into those stumps!

 

Into the net in less than a minute flat..

 

Certainly could be exciting!

[Guest Newt]

Dacer - that is pretty much what I had in mind.

 

However, it isn't a matter of keeping the fish from running to a line or area with stumps. The stumps are everywhere since they just cut trees of a patch of woods and then flooded it. I will have them right up to where I'm standing.

 

So, the only practical approach to keeping em out of the stumps will be to keep their head up and pray. Carp don't seem to like the "head up" thing so it should be lots of fun.

 

It has to be possible to tempt a few too as they will be everywhere in the spring. I looked around a bit this past spring and I would have to estimate seeing literally thousands of carp in this area. Boiling the water next to the shore line as the males pushed the females up there so they could knock eggs out. It was really awesome to see an area several miles long and spawning carp along almost all of it.

 

The part that now surprises me is that they are so tough to catch after the spring is over. I know there must be hnudreds-of-thousands (if not actual millions) of the darned things in the lake.

 

Any chance of getting some professional help from a UK carper who wants to make a trip this direction? I can promise a large water, full of carp, where no one has any idea of the size of the larger ones. And where the likelyhood of any haveing ever seen a hook is very slim. I have plenty of rods/reels but none of the fancy bits and baits you folks like to use (wouldn't know what to do with most of them anyway).

[Guest Steve Burke]

I haven't had any carp on a fly rod but have had a few up to about 10lbs on a 7½foot light lure rod and 6lb line. The successful patterns were 1/16oz jigs dressed with hair and also twisters in the same weight. I also caught on dog biscuits.

 

In fact I was testing the rod, which I designed for perch, to see what weights it would cast. The spliced in quivertip enabled me to cast very light weights as well as lures up to an ounce, yet still have the backbone to land the carp.

 

As far as leaders go I was using flourocarbon as it sinks, which I agree seems to make a big difference with floating baits.

 

 

 

 

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Wingham Fisheries

http://www.anglersnet.co.uk/fisheries/wingham.htm

[Guest Nightwing]

Newt, my best success has been on 1/16 oz. jigs, but anything from 1/4 on down to 1/64 has its place, depending upon circumstances. Your description of the locale would have me try a larger jig, only because the hook is going to be strong enough to controll the fish. The hook on a 1/16 or smaller jig is so light that it would not hold up the the "hook and hold" technique that you are going to have to use. I use plain jigs with white or brown twisty tails, but experiment with color or other trailers as well.

All that being said, you know that I would likely try the fly rod anyway!