Exif and RAW. . . a question?

[Steve Randles]

Its a fun competition and a fun hobby, lets not forget that...please and thank you.

 

RAW...puts dread into the boots of many, it need not do. Without RAW there would not be any jpegs...end of story.

 

Every single digital camera out there records the photograph when you press the shutter button in RAW format, however its how the camera processes and stores it then decides if it stays as RAW or is turned into a jpeg. If you set your camera to take photos in jpeg, you are in fact doing exactly the same thing as someone taking a photo in RAW format...jpeg users let the camera process the shot, RAW users do the processing on their computers.

 

Exif. Some of you will have noticed that I have started to question why no exif attached in the comp gallery, Junes entries will include exif or be deleted to keep in line with rules that have been in use for two years here. I have been in contact with a few members on the issue, both privately and publically and again I will say I did not want to walk back in here and stomp my feet so I have given some leeway. A couple of entries have been pulled by members in May due to this, by their own choice to avoid anyone getting hot uner the collar.

 

"Save as", "Save for Web", "Save for email and devices" are all different ways to save files after you have resized them, using anything except "Save as" will strip exif information from a photo and its not necessary to use any other save command. Exif file information contains info from your camera and ammounts to a size of around 2 to 5 kbs, so stripping it out wont do you any favours at all. Photographs can be resized before using " save as" thereby bringing filesize down to an acceptable size, you only really need to use "save as" Some photo editing software will allow you to choose a quality setting when you click to save as, this allows you to choose the size in kbs. With such programs I can take a 12mb RAW file and reduce it in size to 800pixels longest edge with a filesize of between 150 - 250KBS and it will still hold the original exif info and look good too.

 

Steve...

[Hellbelly]

OK, had my coffee now and I'm feeling much better. AND, have worked out how to resize, keep EXIF and not make pic blocky.

 

Mick.

[Sutton Warrior]

Well I can tell you now, I shoot in RAW and I'm sure as hell not going to go out and change my settings EVERY TIME I see a shot that I think might go in the AN photo comp. You must be joking. RAW is the very basic's of editing, it's not removing lamp posts, or adding extra flowers to a shot, it's just colour correcting, exposure adjusting basic editing.

 

As for EXIF, I've got nothing to hide but I cant get the EXIF up there. I convert from RAW but then when I resize, I use the "Save for web or device" coz if I dont the pic comes out very very blocky. I think this is where my EXIF goes AWOL. i'm working on it. OK, I wont post anymore comp entries until I sort it.

 

You've given me the shits SW, you may have the rules on your side but I still got the shits

 

 

Gets the brain working 'Mick', looks like you have got it sorted. Its a simple rule, as Steve has said, been in place for a longtime. I'm pleased you have it sorted, we can all rest easy.

 

The 'RAW thing', its a very personal mountain. Steve has made the point, which I accept.

 

It has to be said, a good few AN competitions have been won with pictures taken on compacts . . . so RAW is not all conquering

 

I suppose my concern is to keep the 'AN' competition pure? By that, I mean, what the photographer sees is what is posted, I am not into 'Computer artistic imaging', that in my book is a whole different ball park of disciplines.

 

This is what the rules say:

Quote

Digital manipulations.

 

All entries should limit the use of digital manipulations to a minimum. It is suggested that only file conversion, level, curve, cropping and sharpening be used if necessary.

 

Adding or removing elements to or from the original image is NOT allowed. NO Frames.

 

To paraphrase, 'keep it simple' . . . for me, its why I like our competition, it is simple, we do it for its own sake, no prizes . . . what I see is what I submit

 

SW

Edited June 7, 2009 by Sutton Warrior

[Steve Randles]

Indeed, RAW is not the great conqueror, its merely a file format and will not help you take good photographs. Its all the file information from when you clicked the shutter button, jpeg just compresses it and discards some of this info. So there we have it, all the mystery gone from RAW vs jpeg.

 

The new format and competition area allows AN members to vote for what they like using whatever guidelines they may want to, its your choice at the end of the day and rules where set up 2 years ago to allow as broad a selection as possible but to stop or control those who may want to shal we say "over indulge" themselves.

 

Yes, quite a few comps have been won using compacts I even remember back in the early days when one shot that won came from a mobile phone, all have a chance of winning and long may that remain the case.

 

Steve...

[J.K]

Yet again some one turning what should be fun into something more "serious". Yes rules are there and should be kept to but we are not entering pictures to win anything.

 

Its the reason why I went quiet before now looks like I maybe off for good. One of my images doesn't have exif data, I replied via pm to steve with the information. I have nothing to hide just a click of the wrong button.

 

Im more than happy to answer questions on what I use & how I use it. Like Mick I mainly shoot in RAW to give me some flexibility in my photography. I get more keepers this way so makes sense in my opinion to do this.

 

This is ment to be fun and a place to share your photographs with others. Everyone has there style, likes & dislikes.

 

*Some shoot with UV filters, some with polarised filter, some with no filters at all !

*Some spend 30mins planning a shot, others literally seconds.

*Some have access to 1 lens others 5 lens'.

*Some have dedicated flash guns & reflectors, others have to do with an in built flash.

 

As you can see, there is a wealth of difference between everyone posting images on here. You have to expect a difference in the photographs entered. Not everyone is at the same level nor using the same equipment.

Edited June 7, 2009 by J.K

[Sutton Warrior]

Yet again some one turning what should be fun into something more "serious". Yes rules are there and should be kept to but we are not entering pictures to win anything.

 

Its the reason why I went quiet before now looks like I maybe off for good. One of my images doesn't have exif data, I replied via pm to steve with the information. I have nothing to hide just a click of the wrong button.

 

Im more than happy to answer questions on what I use & how I use it. Like Mick I mainly shoot in RAW to give me some flexibility in my photography. I get more keepers this way so makes sense in my opinion to do this.

 

This is ment to be fun and a place to share your photographs with others. Everyone has there style, likes & dislikes.

 

*Some shoot with UV filters, some with polarised filter, some with no filters at all !

*Some spend 30mins planning a shot, others literally seconds.

*Some have access to 1 lens others 5 lens'.

*Some have dedicated flash guns & reflectors, others have to do with an in built flash.

 

As you can see, there is a wealth of difference between everyone posting images on here. You have to expect a difference in the photographs entered. Not everyone is at the same level nor using the same equipment.

 

Yes fair enough, but I still have my personal view, as does everyone else on site, my original post invited 'considered personal views'. As usual in these matters, things have got a little to personal. The RAW issue, I can see why, I also hoped others could see my view, if not agreeing with it . . . I will retract any offensive statements that may have been taken by any member, on RAW I am happy to go with the flow.

 

On the issue of rules and Exif, I see no room for flexibility, they are simple enough to not be ambiguous, press the wrong button, the umpire will raise the finger 'out', it has ever been so, fallen foul myself with finger trouble once or twice. We do it for the fun, its still the best, uncomplicated, open to all abilities competition I have seen. Taking your ball home wont help any body, go with the flow J.K.

 

SW

 

PS I might ad, if you want to demonstrate your prowes and ability in a more 'over indulged' manner, there is the 'photo of the day' thread, with no restrictions . . .

Edited June 7, 2009 by Sutton Warrior

[Janet]

I love the competition as it is, because it gives a total beginner like me the same chance as everyone else. With the rules in place and adhered to, then it's a level playing field for all of us. I know there are no prizes involved, but I can't tell you how chuffed I was when I won last month on my first attempt, with a simple compact camera. It's really spurred me on to try and improve.

 

I've been rather intimidated by some of the other photo forums I've looked at - this is a friendly and welcoming place. Let's keep it so! I think SW may have rattled a few cages with his comments, but I also feel that he was right to voice his opinion.

 

Perhaps someone should start a new thread, (or even a new competition?) specificially to show what can be done with image manipulation? I think they would be in danger of getting lost in the "Photo of the Day" thread. I'm thinking in particular of some of Hellbelly's incredible photo's. I have absolutely no idea what he does to get those effects, but I love them, although I know that they don't always appeal to you, SW. Have you clicked on the link at the bottom of his posts and looked at his other photo's? Very, very good work.

 

Still, each to his own. We all know what "works" for us and what doesn't. None of us are right or wrong, and thankfully there's room for all of us on here, with all our different opinions.

 

Janet

[danny_b]

Hi all, hope your all well.

 

The problems with RAW files i just cant see, but thats peoples own opinions if they dont shoot in raw files, and personally i think your limiting yourselves, but whatever floats your boat.

 

But what i want to bring up here is about the EXIF file informations rule. I raise the question of what if i shoot on my Canon 1V or Hassleblad and then scan the images to get a digital file. There is no Exif data available. Does this mean that an image shot on a 35mm or 120mm film camera can NOT be enter into the competition? This rule makes no sense to me. Encouraging the inclusion of Exif data yes, definitely. But to not allow an image to be entered into the competition because it does not have it is just plain crazy. Not everyone shoots on digital cameras, so they are immediately ruled out of entering the competition, and you have all voiced your concerns about a lack of entries in the not to distant past. I am aware that the majority of people on here will shot exclusively on digital cameras, and film is now almost exclusively in the realms of the pro or 'traditionalist', and i personally hate that term lol, but i still do not agree with this rule, the information contained within Exif data isnt that critical to whether an image is a good one or a poor one, dont get stuck on the mechanics of an image, a great image is still a great image whether or not it was shot with an aperture of f64 or f2.8, or if it has had any editing done to it via the computer or via the enlarger in the darkroom, or none at all, which is VERY unlikely!

 

I shoot on both 35mm and digital SLR's by the way, and use RAW files and then process in photoshop and do whatever it takes to improve the image, though i do think that in the majority of the cases, as little as possible is the order of the day. I have also processed and printed my own negative pictures, and there is often more to do whilst printing negative film then there is digital files.

 

I haven't entered the competition yet, i may do in the future, who knows, i havent read the entry requirements yet so they may put me off entering a 'fun' competition. Im not intending to put anyones backs up either or anything like that, just raising a very valid point.

 

Danny

[Janet]

Good to hear from you Danny, and you have raised a very valid point there, which will no doubt stimulate some discussion!

 

If indeed the rules are prohibiting some members from entering, then perhaps they need revising slightly to take your comments into account?

 

We have some excellent entries this month, but more would be better, so please have a go!

 

Janet

[Clifftop]

I think the original idea of having the exif was to help new photographers to see what settings a particular photograph was taken with and so give them some guidance to taking better photographs.

 

 

 

just like me asking ayjay what lens he used to shoot the fish ( see photo of the day )

 

 

Cheers Fred