The drop or 'tell tale' shot

[Alan Stubbs]

Dick Walker's argument was not that a tell tale shot "made no difference" but that he could use a large shot to achieve the same aim as a small one. In other words the force required to lift a float quarter of an inch with a BB right next to the hook is the same as required to lift the same float tip quarter of an inch with a number eight right next to the hook.

 

 

Of course, because initially the fish is lifting the hook and bait plus the line up to the first shot. Until it connects with the first shot, its weight is irrelevant.

[ColinW]

Of course, because initially the fish is lifting the hook and bait plus the line up to the first shot. Until it connects with the first shot, its weight is irrelevant.

 

No, that wasn't Walker's argument. He meant that lifting the big shot is no harder for the fish than lifting the small one, because in both cases the force required is ONLY the force required to lift the equivalent of the mass of water displaced by the float tip, which is the same in both cases. The fish doesn't "lift" the full weight of the big shot, the float does most of the work.

I think he is right (as he usually was) but I still use size 8 or 10 tell tales!

[Alan Stubbs]

No, that wasn't Walker's argument. He meant that lifting the big shot is no harder for the fish than lifting the small one, because in both cases the force required is ONLY the force required to lift the equivalent of the mass of water displaced by the float tip, which is the same in both cases. The fish doesn't "lift" the full weight of the big shot, the float does most of the work.

I think he is right (as he usually was) but I still use size 8 or 10 tell tales!

 

 

Colin, I take your point. I was looking at the drop shot acting as a fulcrum, and thus the float tip shouldn't react until the drop shot is disturbed. Newton's first law, I think..(but I'll readily admit to being unsure - and with a partner who's an astrophysicist, I'm embarrassed!)

 

**The management just walked in and tells me it was Newton's third law.**

 

She's just given me a lesson in basic physics. My understanding is that the shot perfectly counterbalances the float, but as soon as a tell-tale shot is on the bottom it becomes a fulcrum and thus an inert part of the rig and therefore plays no part in counter-balancing the float.

If, on the other hand the tell-tale shot is off the bottom, it becomes active as it is no longer a pivot point.

 

I can understand what Walker was getting at, but in the overall scheme of things I was thinking that bulking the shot down the line will get the bait down quickly on a trotting rig, so if it's left say, a foot or so from the hook would surely negate the need for a tell tale shot in running water. Of course on a still water things are different and shotting patterns become far more relevant.

 

That said, I am not a particularly experiened river angler, and curiousity was aroused as I couldn't see the point of a tell-tale shot - apart from when Tigger said about getting the bait down quickly.

Edited June 23, 2009 by Alan Stubbs

[tiddlertamer]

Dick Walker's argument was not that a tell tale shot "made no difference" but that he could use a large shot to achieve the same aim as a small one. In other words the force required to lift a float quarter of an inch with a BB right next to the hook is the same as required to lift the same float tip quarter of an inch with a number eight right next to the hook.

 

According to Mark Wintle in an article on another fishing website, Dick Walker did think that bulkshotting alone was effective:

 

"It is necessary at this point to understand the importance of the final (drop) shot. Decades ago debates raged for weeks on whether the drop shot had any effect, with Dick Walker taking on all comers, claiming that a bulk shotting pattern was the only one needed. "

 

Wintle himself disagrees though.

 

Physics never being a strongpoint of mine, ( whether it be the first or third or even all of Newton's laws ) I think I'm going to come down on the side of a trusty river keeper I know on the Hampshire Avon who recommends bulk shotting alone. That won't stop me experimenting throughout the season though or from listening to any more advice posted here.

Edited June 23, 2009 by tiddlertamer

[Anderoo]

The reason I like a couple of small droppers when trotting (and I mean trotting in fairly pacy water) is that I feel that it enables me to search out the water more effecively. I usually have a small bulk at 2/3rds distance from the float, then a micro swivel (probably weighs the same as a couple of no.8s) then two no.8s spaced equally down the hooklength. This means that in fairly fast water, by slightly holding back, everything travels downstream at about a 45 degree angle (ish!).

 

If I hold back more, the droppers will lift and I can get the bait higher in the water, e.g. to hop over a clump of weed. If I don't hold back as much, the bait will be closer to the bottom.

 

Without the droppers, the bait would be hanging horizontally downstream from the bulk shot whether I held back hard or not. This affects presentation, and also means that the float has to travel further downstream for a bite to register.

 

I'm not sure if I've explained that properly! It seems to me that a couple of droppers when trotting are pretty much essential if you want any control over where your bait is.

 

Maybe it's less useful for that reason in slower water, but then the other reason comes into play - faster bite detection.

[blockend]

On stillwaters I err towards a BB about 8" from the hook as a dropper. It's a pragmatic decision rather than an aesthetic one based on the fact if you can't tell a bite you can't hit it. At anything further than two rod lengths I struggle to see what's happening to a float especially if there's a breeze and dust shot won't tell me anything about a non-insert waggler and I wouldn't be able to see an insert float.

 

Years ago I read an article that said if you're missing bites the temptation is to lighten up whereas you should be doing just the opposite. Better a noddy looking rig that works than a theoretical masterpiece that just looks pretty.

[Andy Macfarlane]

I get the point about the weight being of no significant difference to the float. Theoretically but I think we're missing something here too. A bite, especially with a small-mouthed species, like roach, often takes time to develop properly. A big SSG or a combination of BBs might make no difference to the balance of the float but I'm 100% certain that I'd rather the fish had as little to notice when taking that first taste as possible. If you use a single large shot for instance, the float will register the same at first but you might have milliseconds to react before the bait is rejected. With the same weight but a greater number of smaller shot, the fish, in my mind, will have your bait just that little bit longer.

 

So what do you do? If a float says it take one AAA do you use one AAA or do you use 2 BBs, 4 No. 4s....what?

 

I think the greater number of smaller shot will give you longer to notice and hit that bite.

[blockend]

Hugely complex subject with every variable of water, wind, distance, species and getting away from the OP's trotting theme but if you can catch on the lift method, which relies on displacing on small leger weight to all intents and purposes, every other method is subtle. A large suspended bottom shot is in a sense a variation on that theme.

 

Ideally for roach, say, a tall antennae would give tell-tale pick ups with a line of dust shot responding to progressive bands on the float. You'd be able to see exactly what was happening but whether that would enable the angler to give the correct response is open to debate. I'd argue that at any distance such nuances are wasted and you are better off striking at a lift or a sunken float. Frustration sets in if you keep missing twitches as well as disturbing the swim.

 

Yesterday I took half a dozen roach in a lunchtime session on an open-ended feeder, which is a bolt rig by any other name and even then I have to fish standing up and a few paces away to stop myself hitting twitches. Maybe that's why I don't have any 3 pounders to my name!

 

All thoughts, IMHO.