Steve Coppolo's Vision

[Guest challenge]

Clive 97 ans 98 saw hugh amounts of fish taken off flamborough head thousands upon thousands of boxes of cod were taken down off the head end that area has never recoverd my son worked on one of the local boats and they were working off the head and he told me what was going on it was shamefull there large amounts of dead codling comeing up in the codend which had been thrown back because they werent upto say a medium the big boats were dumping them over the side as there was that much fish with each haul they were nt bothered with anything under a medium our local top boat our lass 2 does extremly well working off norway she is breaking records at the moment with over 1000 box landing for only short fishing times well that was the scale of the fishing with the big scotch boats down off this coast in 90ss they couldnt belive what they were catching just how rich these grounds were with cod somebody has a lot to anser for we aint getting large amounts of juvenile fish anymore the simple anser is you have to the fish to produce them in the first place with decrease in fishing effort things may take a turn for the better but what boats are left are pair trwaling most of the time which is in clear water 10-1 catch rates against a single trawl so if you are talking about effort there still plenty at certain times of the year.

 

Wurzel says that cod disapeare when full of spawn they go well off the bottom to breed i have seen vidios of cod spwaning which clearly show they are they are many fathoms up from the sea bed quite often they will gather up in large shoals on the bottom just before they start there breeding process at the end of the day its a good job they do go off the bottom just to keep out of harms way.

 

paul.

 

paul.

Hello Paul.

I wonder why there were so many small codlings in that area that year. I have fished of the head quite a few times trawling in the 80,s both single trawling and pair trawling. It was a decent sort of fishery but we never had that amount of fish? There where plenty of boats there at the time.

We use to fish south of the Humber inside through the winter months and we had quite a few trips where we had a hundred or so boxes of small codlings but nothing like what you’re saying that your son witnessed.

I have spoken to commercial fishermen too about this fishery and they too said that there seamed to be codlings in great numbers where ever you trawled in what was actually a large area.

They where telling me that they didn’t have to go anywhere near the bad square (that’s and area just off flambourgh head that we use to trawl.) Because there was tons of fish to be caught anywhere off to the ten mile grounds and beyond. A Massive area Paul that was obviously heavily populated with a lot of small fish and marketable fish too.

You only have to go off shields or Hartlepool in the last few months to witness large amounts of boats chasing the local fishery. It has always happened Paul. Fishermen tend to try and go where the fish or prawns or whatever they are targeting is. You mention the fishing boat our lass working off the Norwegian coast. She is there because at this time of year it is where she can make the most money. She certainly won’t be working 4 or 5 hundred miles away from her home port for the scenery. Another week or two and I would imagine that the black that they are targeting will have spawned and then they will have to think about targeting something else.

You say that somebody has a lot to answer for Paul. So who would that be then? The commercial fisherman for trying to catch fish? Or the people who where managing what he was suppose to be catching? Or do you think that (taking into account the year) a bit of both.

Regards.

[cleeclive]

Hello Paul.

I wonder why there were so many small codlings in that area that year. I have fished of the head quite a few times trawling in the 80,s both single trawling and pair trawling. It was a decent sort of fishery but we never had that amount of fish? There where plenty of boats there at the time.

We use to fish south of the Humber inside through the winter months and we had quite a few trips where we had a hundred or so boxes of small codlings but nothing like what you’re saying that your son witnessed.

I have spoken to commercial fishermen too about this fishery and they too said that there seamed to be codlings in great numbers where ever you trawled in what was actually a large area.

They where telling me that they didn’t have to go anywhere near the bad square (that’s and area just off flambourgh head that we use to trawl.) Because there was tons of fish to be caught anywhere off to the ten mile grounds and beyond. A Massive area Paul that was obviously heavily populated with a lot of small fish and marketable fish too.

You only have to go off shields or Hartlepool in the last few months to witness large amounts of boats chasing the local fishery. It has always happened Paul. Fishermen tend to try and go where the fish or prawns or whatever they are targeting is. You mention the fishing boat our lass working off the Norwegian coast. She is there because at this time of year it is where she can make the most money. She certainly won’t be working 4 or 5 hundred miles away from her home port for the scenery. Another week or two and I would imagine that the black that they are targeting will have spawned and then they will have to think about targeting something else.

You say that somebody has a lot to answer for Paul. So who would that be then? The commercial fisherman for trying to catch fish? Or the people who where managing what he was suppose to be catching? Or do you think that (taking into account the year) a bit of both.

Regards.

 

Now then Challenge, as I said when I started this issue of that exceptional fishery, there was a lot to answer for and the scientific and management system is the first culprit in that they have no system in place t0 react to a situation like this. I also blame the fishermen who happily destroyed their own future because they cannot resist seeing big bags of bulk coming aboard. There was nothing to have stopped the industry adopting a voluntary increase in codend mesh size for a year when they saw that level of waste. And the Ministry which supposedly works in partnership with industry could be planning such a move for the next time that this happens, but it will never hapen and the same will take place again because the whole management system is totally in-flexible.

 

So please don't claim no one is to blame and let us at least be innovative in our future management regimes to try and stop history repeating itself.

 

I have worked in the fishing industy all of my life and just despair in the total incompetence and political in-fighting which takes place in its management, and it has no real future as long as the same daft approaches are perpetuated with the addition of yet more stakeholders to complicate it politically.

[Guest challenge]

Now then Challenge, as I said when I started this issue of that exceptional fishery, there was a lot to answer for and the scientific and management system is the first culprit in that they have no system in place t0 react to a situation like this. I also blame the fishermen who happily destroyed their own future because they cannot resist seeing big bags of bulk coming aboard. There was nothing to have stopped the industry adopting a voluntary increase in codend mesh size for a year when they saw that level of waste. And the Ministry which supposedly works in partnership with industry could be planning such a move for the next time that this happens, but it will never hapen and the same will take place again because the whole management system is totally in-flexible.

 

So please don't claim no one is to blame and let us at least be innovative in our future management regimes to try and stop history repeating itself.

 

I have worked in the fishing industy all of my life and just despair in the total incompetence and political in-fighting which takes place in its management, and it has no real future as long as the same daft approaches are perpetuated with the addition of yet more stakeholders to complicate it politically.

Hi cleeclive.

I believe that somewhere within the marine bill some of the new powers that are going to be given to IFCA, s are to just what you suggest. Having the power to close a fishery if they think that it is being over exploited. A Bit like what DEFRA do now in closing a fishery if they think that an endangered spices (let’s say cod for example) is being overly exploited as a buy catch within that fishery.

Will have a dig about and see if I can come up with anymore information on it.

Regards.

[Leon Roskilly]

Hi cleeclive.

I believe that somewhere within the marine bill some of the new powers that are going to be given to IFCA, s are to just what you suggest. Having the power to close a fishery if they think that it is being over exploited. A Bit like what DEFRA do now in closing a fishery if they think that an endangered spices (let’s say cod for example) is being overly exploited as a buy catch within that fishery.

Will have a dig about and see if I can come up with anymore information on it.

Regards.

 

 

Hi Challenge,

 

A criticism of the current system, whereby SFCs can make byelaws, is that in some cases it takes so long to bring in a byelaw that the damage is largely done before all of the paperwork, consultations and procedures can be completed.

 

Not just closures, but anything that needs an urgent action.

 

So, the IFCAs will be given the authority to take immediate action where the circumstances justify it, but with some safeguards built in, and subject to a time-limit, giving them the breathing space to create a more permanent byelaw some time afterwards (assuming that the nature of the issue isn't just transitory).

 

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2009/pdf/u...20090023_en.pdf

 

157 Emergency byelaws

(1) A byelaw that is made by an IFC authority in the circumstances described in

subsection (2) has effect without being confirmed by the Secretary of State.

 

(2) The circumstances are that—

 

(a) the IFC authority considers that there is an urgent need for the byelaw,

and

(b ) the need to make the byelaw could not reasonably have been foreseen.

(3) A byelaw that has effect by virtue of this section (an “emergency byelaw”)—

(a) comes into force on a date specified in the byelaw, and

(b ) remains in force (unless revoked or extended) for such period, not

exceeding 12 months, as is specified in the byelaw.

 

(4) An IFC authority may, with the written approval of the Secretary of State,

extend the period for which an emergency byelaw is to remain in force.

 

(5) An IFC authority—

(a) may extend that period only once;

(b ) may not extend that period by more than 6 months.

 

(6) The Secretary of State may not give the approval referred to in subsection (4)

unless satisfied that—

(a) during the period for which the emergency byelaw has been in force,

the IFC authority has used its best endeavours to make a byelaw that

will make the emergency byelaw unnecessary, and

(b ) there would be a significant and adverse effect on the marine

environment if the approval was not given.

 

(7) An IFC authority must within 24 hours of making an emergency byelaw notify

the Secretary of State of it.

Edited December 29, 2009 by Leon Roskilly

[Guest challenge]

thanks for that leon.

regards.

[cleeclive]

thanks for that leon.

regards.

This all sounds great but as you know it takes at least a year to get a bye-law through the system. What was needed in November 1997 was help loads of 2 year old discards in the catces ten tiimes more than usual what can we do

quick meeting

 

All vessels involved inn the fishery to use 155mm codends inforce on January first for 1 year then review.

 

I would love to think that it could come into place that quick but I doubt it.

 

Closing the fishery i year later after 100 stakeholders discuss it and the damage is done.

 

Do you see my point

[Guest challenge]

This all sounds great but as you know it takes at least a year to get a bye-law through the system. What was needed in November 1997 was help loads of 2 year old discards in the catces ten tiimes more than usual what can we do

quick meeting

 

All vessels involved inn the fishery to use 155mm codends inforce on January first for 1 year then review.

 

I would love to think that it could come into place that quick but I doubt it.

 

Closing the fishery i year later after 100 stakeholders discuss it and the damage is done.

 

Do you see my point

Absolutely. But do you not think that it is a step in the right direction?

[big_cod]

Now then Challenge, as I said when I started this issue of that exceptional fishery, there was a lot to answer for and the scientific and management system is the first culprit in that they have no system in place t0 react to a situation like this. I also blame the fishermen who happily destroyed their own future because they cannot resist seeing big bags of bulk coming aboard. There was nothing to have stopped the industry adopting a voluntary increase in codend mesh size for a year when they saw that level of waste. And the Ministry which supposedly works in partnership with industry could be planning such a move for the next time that this happens, but it will never hapen and the same will take place again because the whole management system is totally in-flexible.

 

So please don't claim no one is to blame and let us at least be innovative in our future management regimes to try and stop history repeating itself.

 

I have worked in the fishing industy all of my life and just despair in the total incompetence and political in-fighting which takes place in its management, and it has no real future as long as the same daft approaches are perpetuated with the addition of yet more stakeholders to complicate it politically.

 

Clive that particular winter or backend was exceptional as to just how mush fish gathered up down off the headend it was probably feed sandeels or something else but for 2 to 3 months october down to when the boats broke up christmas it was rank the every man and his dog was working down there my lad said you just couldnt clear the fish between hauls the whitby boats were getting anything upto 50-60kit hauls of green at times so what the hell the 90ft scotch boats were getting slaughter on a massive scale that year there was a big juvenile fisherie of fish beween 2-6lb off this coast throught the summer the fishing was exceptional not only for the commercial boats but for angling boats as well you could catch a codling in a puddle i allways remember on of the skippers telling me they couldnt wait to get back at it after christmas he said he hadnt seen fish gathered up like that all the years he had been fishing straight after christmas all the boats made there way down off the headend but the damage had been allready done it was like desert what little fish was left had took off a basket for a 4 hour tow not enough to pay for the fuel never mind the crew and the boat but you could see just what damage had been done around this area the next year something drew all that fish into a small area it must have swam miles 12 big scotch boats spent 3 winters down off this coast and i wouldnt like think just what they caught many a morning i would set off out of the harbour and would be greeted by half a dozen or so 90ft boats towing up the 3 mile abreast of the harbour on the the 3 mile over 60ft and at that time it was a 3 mile limit but 2 were caught towing inside the prohibitaded area which is a 3 mile limit to the north of whitby in broad daylight the penny dropped eventually amoung the whitby skippers has to just how much damage these boats were doing to the local fisherie wheels got in motion and bylaw was passed by NSFC that anyboat over a certain horsepower or killowat had to fish out aback of the 6 mile after 3 winters down here the 90ft boats stopped comeing down here because you guesed it not enough fish for them what they took off this coast in the winters they had off here was unbeleivable.

 

paul.

Edited December 30, 2009 by big_cod

[barry luxton]

A criticism of the current system, whereby SFCs can make byelaws, is that in some cases it takes so long to bring in a byelaw that the damage is largely done before all of the paperwork, consultations and procedures can be completed.

 

Not just closures, but anything that needs an urgent action.

Something that needed urgent action but didn't get it because of brinkmanship, jobsworth and incorrect interpretation of the rules, lack of care for the individuall's position within the community, who over the years has generated a heck of a lot of money for the local community. Including paying taxes to keep the sfc employee enjoying the position that he is in, wages and pension, exe's, etc.

 

And that was Ian Carrier when he arranged the boarding of Pat Carlins angling boat during an angling match, ignoring other boats of a similar size who where fishing in the same comp. And what for, because rules are rules even if they were not fit for purpose as interpreted in this case.

 

To date, it is still the same situation. So according to the sfc 'rule' Pat Carling can't fish his home water as it is perceived by the few dictating that his angling passenger carrying vessel, had been classed as a commercial fishing boat. Buster browns spring to mind. The boat is fishing on a unsustainable basis and is bad for conservation just because of it's size. Yet the same sfc allow the commercial potting boats that are clearly oversize with the extended rear sections permanantly fixed to the stern of the boats, many btw to carry on as usual. Something ain't right and it's still the same today.

Edited January 1, 2010 by barry luxton

[cleeclive]

Absolutely. But do you not think that it is a step in the right direction?

 

The new powers are a step in the right direction, but I am begining to feel that with all the new stakeholders things will get very complex. I worked very closely with the fisheries science communuty for around 10 years with various EU funded selectivity projects and on some ICES working groups, and I used to get very excited when we had conducted some experiment and we seemed to be getting some positive results. Time the group had analysed all the experimental results and produced conflicting answers and then the statasticians had played with the figures to try to come up with some acceptable solution, whatever you had achieved personally seemed to pale into insignificance and after 15 years little progress had been made Of course during all this time while the scientists score academic points on each other the resource is being decimated. There is a culture within ICES that will never change, and however hard you battle from within the system always wins the argument based on statistical credibility and whether the work has been accepted for publication in a scientific journal.

 

This all has to be done before we are allowed to play politics with it. I think we all know how complex that can be as well. So I welcome any changes that will speed up the process but I doubt if they will happen in reality.

 

But mayne this is just because the older you get the more like Victor Meldrew you become! but at least we have Forums to vent our frustrations about life, not that a lot changes.