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If all the Carp went away what would replace them?


Dales

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From recent and old threads it is obvious that Carp or more so the trappings around Carp fishing and the way that some waters have been ruined and turned in to mud puddles has got many a little worked up.

 

However if the Carp were no longer with us and just miraculously disappeared over night or were blighted by some disease that only effected the King Carp strains and so no longer were a good option for restocking by fishery owners. Then what would be the species of choice that would replace them.

 

The things that most hate about Carp fishing could also be just as easy be associated with other species. If the Carp had not destroyed your favourite fishery another species would have. So what species would be the natural heir apparent for the crown currently held by the Carp. I think there is far to much looking at fishing through rose tinted glasses, maybe there was and maybe there was not a golden age of mixed fisheries and species to choose from, but with modern life and a wish to have everything made just a little bit easy and on tap it is inevitable that one species or another would become the dominant stocked fish. It just happened to be Carp.

 

So what could replace the Carp?

Stephen

 

Species Caught 2014

Zander, Pike, Bream, Roach, Tench, Perch, Rudd, Common Carp, Mirror Carp, Eel, Grayling, Brown Trout, Rainbow Trout

Species Caught 2013

Pike, Zander, Bream, Roach, Eel, Tench, Rudd, Perch, Common Carp, Koi Carp, Brown Goldfish, Grayling, Brown Trout, Chub, Roosterfish, Dorado, Black Grouper, Barracuda, Mangrove Snapper, Mutton Snapper, Jack Crevalle, Tarpon, Red Snapper

Species Caught 2012
Zander, Pike, Perch, Chub, Ruff, Gudgeon, Dace, Minnow, Wels Catfish, Common Carp, Mirror Carp, Ghost Carp, Roach, Bream, Eel, Rudd, Tench, Arapaima, Mekong Catfish, Sawai Catfish, Marbled Tiger Catfish, Amazon Redtail Catfish, Thai Redtail Catfish, Batrachian Walking Catfish, Siamese Carp, Rohu, Julliens Golden Prize Carp, Giant Gourami, Java Barb, Red Tailed Tin Foil Barb, Nile Tilapia, Black Pacu, Red Bellied Pacu, Alligator Gar
Species Caught 2011
Zander, Tench, Bream, Chub, Barbel, Roach, Rudd, Grayling, Brown Trout, Salmon Parr, Minnow, Pike, Eel, Common Carp, Mirror Carp, Ghost Carp, Koi Carp, Crucian Carp, F1 Carp, Blue Orfe, Ide, Goldfish, Brown Goldfish, Comet Goldfish, Golden Tench, Golden Rudd, Perch, Gudgeon, Ruff, Bleak, Dace, Sergeant Major, French Grunt, Yellow Tail Snapper, Tom Tate Grunt, Clown Wrasse, Slippery Dick Wrasse, Doctor Fish, Graysby, Dusky Squirrel Fish, Longspine Squirrel Fish, Stripped Croaker, Leather Jack, Emerald Parrot Fish, Red Tail Parrot Fish, White Grunt, Bone Fish
Species Caught 2010
Zander, Pike, Perch, Eel, Tench, Bream, Roach, Rudd, Mirror Carp, Common Carp, Crucian Carp, Siamese Carp, Asian Redtail Catfish, Sawai Catfish, Rohu, Amazon Redtail Catfish, Pacu, Long Tom, Moon Wrasse, Sergeant Major, Green Damsel, Tomtate Grunt, Sea Chub, Yellowtail Surgeon, Black Damsel, Blue Dot Grouper, Checkered Sea Perch, Java Rabbitfish, One Spot Snapper, Snubnose Rudderfish
Species Caught 2009
Barramundi, Spotted Sorubim Catfish, Wallago Leeri Catfish, Wallago Attu Catfish, Amazon Redtail Catfish, Mrigul, Siamese Carp, Java Barb, Tarpon, Wahoo, Barracuda, Skipjack Tuna, Bonito, Yellow Eye Rockfish, Red Snapper, Mangrove Snapper, Black Fin Snapper, Dog Snapper, Yellow Tail Snapper, Marble Grouper, Black Fin Tuna, Spanish Mackerel, Mutton Snapper, Redhind Grouper, Saddle Grouper, Schoolmaster, Coral Trout, Bar Jack, Pike, Zander, Perch, Tench, Bream, Roach, Rudd, Common Carp, Golden Tench, Wels Catfish
Species Caught 2008
Dorado, Wahoo, Barracuda, Bonito, Black Fin Tuna, Long Tom, Sergeant Major, Red Snapper, Black Damsel, Queen Trigga Fish, Red Grouper, Redhind Grouper, Rainbow Wrasse, Grey Trigger Fish, Ehrenbergs Snapper, Malabar Grouper, Lunar Fusiler, Two Tone Wrasse, Starry Dragonet, Convict Surgeonfish, Moonbeam Dwarf Angelfish,Bridled Monocle Bream, Redlined Triggerfish, Cero Mackeral, Rainbow Runner
Species Caught 2007
Arapaima, Alligator Gar, Mekong Catfish, Spotted Sorubim Catfish, Pacu, Siamese Carp, Barracuda, Black Fin Tuna, Queen Trigger Fish, Red Snapper, Yellow Tail Snapper, Honeycomb Grouper, Red Grouper, Schoolmaster, Cubera Snapper, Black Grouper, Albacore, Ballyhoo, Coney, Yellowfin Goatfish, Lattice Spinecheek

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The only other species I can think of that will grow to a decent size and survive with the kind of abuse carp will is tench - that would be very sad.

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The only other species I can think of that will grow to a decent size and survive with the kind of abuse carp will is tench - that would be very sad.

Or barbel! :(

Eating wild caught fish is good for my health, reduces food miles and keeps me fit trying to catch them........it's my choice to do it, not yours to stop me!

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However if the Carp were no longer with us and just miraculously disappeared over night or were blighted by some disease that only effected the King Carp strains and so no longer were a good option for restocking by fishery owners. Then what would be the species of choice that would replace them.

 

The things that most hate about Carp fishing could also be just as easy be associated with other species. If the Carp had not destroyed your favourite fishery another species would have. So what species would be the natural heir apparent for the crown currently held by the Carp. I think there is far to much looking at fishing through rose tinted glasses, maybe there was and maybe there was not a golden age of mixed fisheries and species to choose from, but with modern life and a wish to have everything made just a little bit easy and on tap it is inevitable that one species or another would become the dominant stocked fish. It just happened to be Carp.

 

So what could replace the Carp?

 

I have to disagree that some species would naturally become the permanent 'dominant' species.

One of the lakes that has been ruined I have fished for a few decades. During that time, I have known the bream years, the roach years, the the tench years, the perch years, and so on. Bigger than average fish of each species have become plentiful according to the conditions, and as they changed, others have replaced them. It's a natural cycle that has happened on many waters I've fished over the years. It's only when waters become over managed for the benefit of the angler, that you start to see what we have now. I believe that restocking should only be allowed to compensate for a fish kill, such as pollution. Not to boost someones ego, or bank balance.

I would feel the same of any species that was stocked to the insane levels we have with carp. I knew a guy who wanted to create a pike fishery, he sourced pike from anywhere he could, a few were in the 30lb bracket. He also stocked with trout to feed the pike. I've no idea how the place is now, but it spoiled a good mixed fishery. I had many arguments with him about it, but to no avail.

 

I wish people would stop taking it as just an attack on carp, it's the whole idea that's wrong, both ecologically, and morally.

 

John.

Angling is more than just catching fish, if it wasn't it would just be called 'catching'......... John

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I've said this many times, but it's not the carp that are the problem, it's the stocking policies associated with them. If carp disappeared and were replaced in the same numbers with ANY other 'large' species, it would be no different.

 

If fishery owners were to replace them with anything, I expect barbel would be very high on the list (no risk of KHV, hard fighting). Which would be unforgivable.

 

I don't think anyone on any of the recent topics has said they want to get rid of all carp. I certainly don't.

 

Quick edit: posted at the same time as John, with much the same content!

Edited by Anderoo

And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music

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If fishery owners were to replace them with anything, I expect barbel would be very high on the list (no risk of KHV, hard fighting). Which would be unforgivable.

 

 

 

I think your right about Barbel being the new fish to go for (only problem, it may drastically affect our rivers!). I suppose more fisheries would just install oxygenators etc to keep them in fettle. Then again we might see more Cats and other exotics being stocked to keep the commercials and the tackle trade going.

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Or barbel! :(

 

Increasingly popular as a sideshow, but I'm not sure they're tough enough to be the main attraction - I think the cost of replacing the dead ones would be prohibitive if stocked at carp densities. Lower lethal oxygen concentration much higher than carp, and upper lethal temperature lower than the carp's growth optimum - can you imagine how expensive a hot summer could be?

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I have to disagree that some species would naturally become the permanent 'dominant' species.

One of the lakes that has been ruined I have fished for a few decades. During that time, I have known the bream years, the roach years, the the tench years, the perch years, and so on. Bigger than average fish of each species have become plentiful according to the conditions, and as they changed, others have replaced them. It's a natural cycle that has happened on many waters I've fished over the years. It's only when waters become over managed for the benefit of the angler, that you start to see what we have now. I believe that restocking should only be allowed to compensate for a fish kill, such as pollution. Not to boost someones ego, or bank balance.

I would feel the same of any species that was stocked to the insane levels we have with carp. I knew a guy who wanted to create a pike fishery, he sourced pike from anywhere he could, a few were in the 30lb bracket. He also stocked with trout to feed the pike. I've no idea how the place is now, but it spoiled a good mixed fishery. I had many arguments with him about it, but to no avail.

 

I wish people would stop taking it as just an attack on carp, it's the whole idea that's wrong, both ecologically, and morally.

 

John.

 

I agree with what you say and a well balanced fishery left to it's own policing will go through it's own cycles of good years for some species, with other going into temporary decline and it will find its own natural balance with out a single species being dominant, but whether we like it or not this is not the norm now and all fisheries even the good ones will have some form of stocking manipulation.

 

So in a world without Carp or at least lower numbers of them, I get the feeling that many fishery owners would seek to provide a species that grows big, fights hard, hopefully tuff to put up with the strains of being caught and poor oxygen and water quality. I am not saying it is right to do so, but I think it would happen and is happening with Carp at the moment.

 

But take away the Carp from heavily stocked and managed waters, would many anglers really be willing to pay big money to fish a nice and well balanced fishery with Skimmers, Roach, Rudd, Perch etc? I think many sadly not want to and so the fishery owners would turn to an alternative big fish species.

 

My point is that Carp just fulfil the role as the big fish to go for and as your Pike example shows any fish could be used in this way as the big draw. There will all ways be those who wish to fish a well balanced mixed fishery and your argument about over stocking by any species both morally and ecologically is correct, but a lot of anglers only want big fish and fishery owners well those who want to stay in business will seek to provide this.

 

How often do we hear the term "nuisance species" and not only be Carp anglers, often enough to know that most anglers want what they want and that's big fish.

Edited by Dales

Stephen

 

Species Caught 2014

Zander, Pike, Bream, Roach, Tench, Perch, Rudd, Common Carp, Mirror Carp, Eel, Grayling, Brown Trout, Rainbow Trout

Species Caught 2013

Pike, Zander, Bream, Roach, Eel, Tench, Rudd, Perch, Common Carp, Koi Carp, Brown Goldfish, Grayling, Brown Trout, Chub, Roosterfish, Dorado, Black Grouper, Barracuda, Mangrove Snapper, Mutton Snapper, Jack Crevalle, Tarpon, Red Snapper

Species Caught 2012
Zander, Pike, Perch, Chub, Ruff, Gudgeon, Dace, Minnow, Wels Catfish, Common Carp, Mirror Carp, Ghost Carp, Roach, Bream, Eel, Rudd, Tench, Arapaima, Mekong Catfish, Sawai Catfish, Marbled Tiger Catfish, Amazon Redtail Catfish, Thai Redtail Catfish, Batrachian Walking Catfish, Siamese Carp, Rohu, Julliens Golden Prize Carp, Giant Gourami, Java Barb, Red Tailed Tin Foil Barb, Nile Tilapia, Black Pacu, Red Bellied Pacu, Alligator Gar
Species Caught 2011
Zander, Tench, Bream, Chub, Barbel, Roach, Rudd, Grayling, Brown Trout, Salmon Parr, Minnow, Pike, Eel, Common Carp, Mirror Carp, Ghost Carp, Koi Carp, Crucian Carp, F1 Carp, Blue Orfe, Ide, Goldfish, Brown Goldfish, Comet Goldfish, Golden Tench, Golden Rudd, Perch, Gudgeon, Ruff, Bleak, Dace, Sergeant Major, French Grunt, Yellow Tail Snapper, Tom Tate Grunt, Clown Wrasse, Slippery Dick Wrasse, Doctor Fish, Graysby, Dusky Squirrel Fish, Longspine Squirrel Fish, Stripped Croaker, Leather Jack, Emerald Parrot Fish, Red Tail Parrot Fish, White Grunt, Bone Fish
Species Caught 2010
Zander, Pike, Perch, Eel, Tench, Bream, Roach, Rudd, Mirror Carp, Common Carp, Crucian Carp, Siamese Carp, Asian Redtail Catfish, Sawai Catfish, Rohu, Amazon Redtail Catfish, Pacu, Long Tom, Moon Wrasse, Sergeant Major, Green Damsel, Tomtate Grunt, Sea Chub, Yellowtail Surgeon, Black Damsel, Blue Dot Grouper, Checkered Sea Perch, Java Rabbitfish, One Spot Snapper, Snubnose Rudderfish
Species Caught 2009
Barramundi, Spotted Sorubim Catfish, Wallago Leeri Catfish, Wallago Attu Catfish, Amazon Redtail Catfish, Mrigul, Siamese Carp, Java Barb, Tarpon, Wahoo, Barracuda, Skipjack Tuna, Bonito, Yellow Eye Rockfish, Red Snapper, Mangrove Snapper, Black Fin Snapper, Dog Snapper, Yellow Tail Snapper, Marble Grouper, Black Fin Tuna, Spanish Mackerel, Mutton Snapper, Redhind Grouper, Saddle Grouper, Schoolmaster, Coral Trout, Bar Jack, Pike, Zander, Perch, Tench, Bream, Roach, Rudd, Common Carp, Golden Tench, Wels Catfish
Species Caught 2008
Dorado, Wahoo, Barracuda, Bonito, Black Fin Tuna, Long Tom, Sergeant Major, Red Snapper, Black Damsel, Queen Trigga Fish, Red Grouper, Redhind Grouper, Rainbow Wrasse, Grey Trigger Fish, Ehrenbergs Snapper, Malabar Grouper, Lunar Fusiler, Two Tone Wrasse, Starry Dragonet, Convict Surgeonfish, Moonbeam Dwarf Angelfish,Bridled Monocle Bream, Redlined Triggerfish, Cero Mackeral, Rainbow Runner
Species Caught 2007
Arapaima, Alligator Gar, Mekong Catfish, Spotted Sorubim Catfish, Pacu, Siamese Carp, Barracuda, Black Fin Tuna, Queen Trigger Fish, Red Snapper, Yellow Tail Snapper, Honeycomb Grouper, Red Grouper, Schoolmaster, Cubera Snapper, Black Grouper, Albacore, Ballyhoo, Coney, Yellowfin Goatfish, Lattice Spinecheek

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I think the idea of going back to natural stocked waters that go through there own species cycles is a lovely one and the mystery of not knowing what is in a water is magical. Has a year class of one species come through that have gone unnoticed and you catch a big one or a species that no one thought were in the water start showing up, but the reality is that for most waters they are heavily managed and you can even get a stock list on a website with top weights for each species. So stocked fish are here to stay, well on most still waters anyway and if you are going to stock them, it makes sense to stock big species as that's what most of the paying angling public want.

Stephen

 

Species Caught 2014

Zander, Pike, Bream, Roach, Tench, Perch, Rudd, Common Carp, Mirror Carp, Eel, Grayling, Brown Trout, Rainbow Trout

Species Caught 2013

Pike, Zander, Bream, Roach, Eel, Tench, Rudd, Perch, Common Carp, Koi Carp, Brown Goldfish, Grayling, Brown Trout, Chub, Roosterfish, Dorado, Black Grouper, Barracuda, Mangrove Snapper, Mutton Snapper, Jack Crevalle, Tarpon, Red Snapper

Species Caught 2012
Zander, Pike, Perch, Chub, Ruff, Gudgeon, Dace, Minnow, Wels Catfish, Common Carp, Mirror Carp, Ghost Carp, Roach, Bream, Eel, Rudd, Tench, Arapaima, Mekong Catfish, Sawai Catfish, Marbled Tiger Catfish, Amazon Redtail Catfish, Thai Redtail Catfish, Batrachian Walking Catfish, Siamese Carp, Rohu, Julliens Golden Prize Carp, Giant Gourami, Java Barb, Red Tailed Tin Foil Barb, Nile Tilapia, Black Pacu, Red Bellied Pacu, Alligator Gar
Species Caught 2011
Zander, Tench, Bream, Chub, Barbel, Roach, Rudd, Grayling, Brown Trout, Salmon Parr, Minnow, Pike, Eel, Common Carp, Mirror Carp, Ghost Carp, Koi Carp, Crucian Carp, F1 Carp, Blue Orfe, Ide, Goldfish, Brown Goldfish, Comet Goldfish, Golden Tench, Golden Rudd, Perch, Gudgeon, Ruff, Bleak, Dace, Sergeant Major, French Grunt, Yellow Tail Snapper, Tom Tate Grunt, Clown Wrasse, Slippery Dick Wrasse, Doctor Fish, Graysby, Dusky Squirrel Fish, Longspine Squirrel Fish, Stripped Croaker, Leather Jack, Emerald Parrot Fish, Red Tail Parrot Fish, White Grunt, Bone Fish
Species Caught 2010
Zander, Pike, Perch, Eel, Tench, Bream, Roach, Rudd, Mirror Carp, Common Carp, Crucian Carp, Siamese Carp, Asian Redtail Catfish, Sawai Catfish, Rohu, Amazon Redtail Catfish, Pacu, Long Tom, Moon Wrasse, Sergeant Major, Green Damsel, Tomtate Grunt, Sea Chub, Yellowtail Surgeon, Black Damsel, Blue Dot Grouper, Checkered Sea Perch, Java Rabbitfish, One Spot Snapper, Snubnose Rudderfish
Species Caught 2009
Barramundi, Spotted Sorubim Catfish, Wallago Leeri Catfish, Wallago Attu Catfish, Amazon Redtail Catfish, Mrigul, Siamese Carp, Java Barb, Tarpon, Wahoo, Barracuda, Skipjack Tuna, Bonito, Yellow Eye Rockfish, Red Snapper, Mangrove Snapper, Black Fin Snapper, Dog Snapper, Yellow Tail Snapper, Marble Grouper, Black Fin Tuna, Spanish Mackerel, Mutton Snapper, Redhind Grouper, Saddle Grouper, Schoolmaster, Coral Trout, Bar Jack, Pike, Zander, Perch, Tench, Bream, Roach, Rudd, Common Carp, Golden Tench, Wels Catfish
Species Caught 2008
Dorado, Wahoo, Barracuda, Bonito, Black Fin Tuna, Long Tom, Sergeant Major, Red Snapper, Black Damsel, Queen Trigga Fish, Red Grouper, Redhind Grouper, Rainbow Wrasse, Grey Trigger Fish, Ehrenbergs Snapper, Malabar Grouper, Lunar Fusiler, Two Tone Wrasse, Starry Dragonet, Convict Surgeonfish, Moonbeam Dwarf Angelfish,Bridled Monocle Bream, Redlined Triggerfish, Cero Mackeral, Rainbow Runner
Species Caught 2007
Arapaima, Alligator Gar, Mekong Catfish, Spotted Sorubim Catfish, Pacu, Siamese Carp, Barracuda, Black Fin Tuna, Queen Trigger Fish, Red Snapper, Yellow Tail Snapper, Honeycomb Grouper, Red Grouper, Schoolmaster, Cubera Snapper, Black Grouper, Albacore, Ballyhoo, Coney, Yellowfin Goatfish, Lattice Spinecheek

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True, but how many of these people would actually love fishing for a variety of smaller species if they had suitable (i.e. lighter) tackle and had someone to show them how to use it?

 

A lot of people have no idea what they're missing out on, and it's not their fault - hence the carp machine will keep rolling on until there's little else left.

 

What I suspect the majority of 'instant carpers' mean when they talk of nuisance species is, 'this non-carp can just be reeled straight in on my heavy carp gear'.

 

With a carp obsessed media and carp obsessed commercials, is it any wonder that new anglers simply assume fishing begins and ends with carp? If I was starting out now I expect I would go straight into carping and never know what it's like to catch a 3lb tench on the float, or to stalk a 2lb chub from a stream, or trot maggots at some overgrown river and wonder what species will come next.

And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music

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