SAA, NFA, NAA and the rivers close season..?....

[Peter Sharpe]

Direct Action! Get up to date Phil, that became passe yonks ago. It's Reclaim The Streets now, which is why I have formed a group entitled Reclaim The Rivers. The East Midlands branch is holding a sit-in in the Lower Welland on May 1st. Be there or be square. Snorkels optional.

[Cranfield]

Alan has hit the nail right on the head as far as I am concerned.

 

The "political" threads raise so much animosity between the various posters, who all appear to represent different organisations with their own agendas, its depressing.

These are the people that want us to support them in their fight for our right to fish.

 

The "one-up-manship" and "in" comments put most of us off.

Some of the postings are more in the form of private corresspondence, as opposed to a posting on a pubic forum.

I think the participants should think carefully what they want to achieve, before posting.

 

Just my 2p worth.

[Leon Roskilly]

Peter Waller:

The questions that have not been answered, the opinions that have not been challenged, perhaps the answer is the very silence itself.

Peter,

 

I fear that you have been mislead by some of the 'answers' that have appeared on this forum.

 

If you are looking for an 'official' answer from (say) the SAA, you won't find it given on this forum.

 

What you might get is the views of some individuals who are members, maybe officers of the SAA.

 

In this respect whatever (say) Lee says (he is an SAA member), carries the same weight as whatever (say) Chris Burt or Mike Heylin says.

 

Personal opinion, that's all!

 

OK it may give an indication as to what the thinking within the SAA, and particularly within the SAA committee is, but that's all.

 

The comments made in this forum by individuals speaking on their own behalf, are quite likely to be disowned by the rest of the committee/membership.

 

And that is the reason why sometimes 'silence' is all the reply you will get on this public forum.

 

If you expect a statement from the SAA, then your questions need to be directed through the appropriate channels, not thrown to the world at large on one of any number of internet forums (admittedly this one is frequented by more of the SAA committee than most, but isn't that a bit cliquey in itself where AN posters expect to ask questions and get answers, whereas other anglers on other forums won't be so lucky?).

 

It's then up to the SAA to decide whether to respond, and how to respond. It's not up to individual members to take it upon themselves to respond on behalf of the SAA!

 

They could (and often should!)end up with a good kicking from the SAA membership, for speaking out of turn, or through the 'wrong' channels. Giving the impression that their personal thoughts represent the thinking of the SAA, without first having discussed it with the committee or membership.

 

Peter, put your questions through your channel of communication with the SAA and expect an answer via the same medium.

 

If your question is important to all anglers, ask them to issue a press release so that the information can be made available to all anglers.

 

But remember that the SAA doesn't speak for all anglers, it speaks only for those that have chosen to represented by the SAA, either by personal membership, or through contributing via an organisation which has affiliated to the SAA. it is answerable to no one else.

 

Ever heard of death through a thousand arguments?

 

Basically you ask a question. You get a response and ignore some of the response. You pick on the bit that has a weakeness, and ask further questions. The other party repsonds, and ...... well you get the idea!

 

It's an excellent way of tying yoiur 'opponent' up in knots and wasting their time, preventing them from organising themselves on other things.

 

Unfortunately that is the way it sometimes seems to go here, questions answered leads to more questions, leads to .......

 

Diverting people with very little time from doing other things, which they consider important.

 

Every question they take the time to carefully respond to brings a shower of further questions.... Can you really wonder why they become bored with this, especially when they are trying to do so much of importance with so little time avaialable, and so little support being given?

 

Peter, I'm sure that there are those out there who would love to answer all of your questions, but surely you can see that they can't. Not here!

 

Not if the answers you want are to have any value, and truly represent what you want them to represent, and not simply be some half baked response of some individual stating their own personal views.

 

For my own part, I'm happy, when I want to, to post my personal views here.

 

If you misunderstand, or would like further clarification, then you need to buy me a pint.

 

Working out complex issues through text messages, with all and sundry piling in, mostly leads to greater and greater misunderstanding.

 

I say what I have to say, and I'm generally happy to leave it at that.

 

Tedious clarification and ever decreasing argument is the stuff of life to some.

 

For me, I've better things to do with my time.

 

Tight Lines - leon

 

[ 14 April 2002, 04:51 PM: Message edited by: Leon Roskilly ]

[trent.barbeler]

Dear Alan,

 

Sharpy's black sense of humour aside. Or even his realistic view of things;

 

Leon and yourself Alan, have viable points on the subject of a "political" forum. I remember suggestiung the same thing myself some while ago and many disagreed with my views back then. Were you one that disagreed with the creation of a political forum back then Alan?

 

Anyway, no matter because their IS a certain reality arising from seemingly "politically" motivated or orientated threads. That reality being I suppose many fold but the main ones are;

 

Political threads DO get a lot of hits and thats a fact. This is not a fact just on AN, but many other sites as well. Like Leon rightly implies, "give um a whiff of blood, and watch the wolves gather". This may be so.

 

I feel also, that a certain "good" can come from debate on opposing sides of an argument even though certain comments can "sting" at the time of reading them. From these sometimes heated debates, comes an understanding of perceptions if not enlightenment for a new way forward.

 

The problem with "hidding away", if that is the right term, of "hot" angling issues within the strict confines of its own corner, is the very fact that some, no, a lot, of anglers won't ever read them as time goes on. It would remain the domain of the few running headlong into padded walls with crash helmets on. And that my friends, would infact stiffle the "hot" issues away from your rank and file angler who just wants to go fishing. And if it did, no-one apart from the head bangers would ever know whats going off in the "doing" world of angling politics.

 

Pete Sharp might even suggest going further in giving the head bangers such as myself and others our own island, perhaps somewhere in the South China Sea's with bamboo padded walls gallore for us all to run at heads down for eternity so that anglers/fishermen can just go fishing back over here.

 

Sharpy might well have a point if he did suggest such a thing.

 

The thing to do is learn from recent debate. And no matter how good or clever we all think we are, myself included especially, we can learn and move forward. Not in opposition, but by working together.

 

Some have to accept the right for others to exist in their own way working for what they truly believe in, again, in their own way. And those that demand to exist must embrace those that are already in place working for their own memberships. We all must start to tear down any walls between us, because they are, merely paper thin.

 

Out there, in the world that is angling, the massive majority of anglers/fishermen DONT belong to anything. I even have strong doubts that the actual numbers of anglers there are in our island is correct either. There could indeed be far more than perhaps is being admitted because I doubt if EA enforcement would admit to loosing the war on license dodging.

 

To say that one body represents all none joined anglers is wrong in principle. But; The NAA IS what's here now, in this moment in angling history. Admittedly, the NAA is not perfect, the MOU demonstates this to those who oppose it. But this imperfection, as seen in the eyes of some, should not bring about the seige of the NAA walls to bring them down. We have walked too far, and built too much to do that. And we should be looking at taking what we have already and insist that it be made better.

 

The RSSG has arrived. It is being driven by passionate river anglers that want its existence and it will not stop, not for a single second until it is fully established for river anglers right across this country of ours. Perhaps a bold or even impetuous statement to make admittedly but we are determined to make this happen and our momentum is growing daily.

 

The SAA is here and is working for its specialist memberships. No one can seriously doubt its impact or the good things it has done for its members. We river anglers who want and embrace the rivers close season owe part of our on-going close season to the efforts made my the SACG and by their own words, the SAA in fighting any forthcoming battles for its continuence. The same dept is owed to the Barbel Society and others who will continue to fight for the same thing.

 

Clearly, the walls might not be paper thin after all but merely an illusion that we conjure up ourselves. But I strongly feel that in order for a different vision to be seen, we have to start to look at things differently.

 

Others, who are not in memberships of the six governing bodies of angling that make up the NAA, have every right to exist. They have every right to work for their own members aims and objectives and a national, if not human democratic right, to be listened too without having the constraint of "having" to be in NAA membership in order to do so. This government who says that we MUST be in NAA in order to be listened to is wholly wrong. Large or small, minority or majority, we all, each and every one of us have the equal right to be listened to. For this, or any government to be saying to angling, "come together or we have cloth ears" is just no where near good enough. After all, they dont place similar constraints on others so why angling? And why has angling agreed to this demand?

 

The RSSG and any subsequent rivers lobby it might be part of, will demand to be listened to as its structure grows. We take this as our voting democratic right given to everyone else in a free society. Angling, as we see it, is no different, or should be no different to any other groups within our society that are not lumped together for someone elses convinience.

 

It remains a fact that because of this MOU between the NAA and the CA, there has risen a mistrust within angling. Any who doubt this are only fooling themselves. But now is the time surely to try and re-build the trust, if at all possible. And unless we all try, things go downhill from here on.

 

Lets make a start at the next SAA meeting shall we?

 

Oh, and bring your water pistol's.

 

My vote goes to keeping political/envoronmental threads on the main forum for all to see.

 

Birdy,

 

I've had enough of your Allsorts. I want a Marsbar! One of them bigun's. ( I'm really leading up to a box of chocolates that cost three quid if you get my drift?)

 

Regards,

 

Lee.

[Leon Roskilly]

Lee,

 

Excellent post!

 

The only bit I'd disagree with is this:

 

'For this, or any government to be saying to angling, "come together or we have cloth ears" is just no where near good enough. After all, they dont place similar constraints on others so why angling?'

 

As a cyclist, I'm painfully aware of the problems of the Cyclist Tourist Club (CTC), SUSTRANS, British Cycling Federation, The League International etc etc.

 

Some in deadly enmity/competition all being asked to speak with one voice, if they ever expect to be heard by the government.

 

Their inability to come together is one of the principle reasons that so little money is being put into providing safe off road cycling tracks for competitions, and why cycling lags so far behind our European neighbours both as a sport and a means of sustainable transport!

 

At the same time, I'm perplexed at why the government is happy to talk to rugby, soccer, tennis and golf associations seperately.

 

Surely, they are all 'ball-players' and should be encoraged to unify and talk with a single voice?

 

After all, I'm sure that squash players have far more in common with bowls players, than the sea-angler smashing in the head of his hundredth mackerel of the session, has with the pike angler carefully nursing his catch back to recovery before release.

 

Tight Lines - leon

[trent.barbeler]

Dear Leon,

 

I have just read your last post in answer to Peters comments.

 

Now I did think of taking your post piece by piece and answer in a way that would blow you out of the water. Again! But I'm not going to. Why?

 

Leon, you are without doubt the master "wriggler". I cant begin to tell you how much pleasure your posts give me. No matter what is asked, or what crops up, you come back with well chosen criss cross weaving words that would make a ferret jealous.

 

I rather feel that the "individual" opinion stance is wearing a bit thin now though. Because one would assume that SAA officers hold an opinion as an individual, then as soon as they attend meetings or write anything in their "official" SAA capacity, they reach in Worzel Gummage style for their "SAA Head" chucking their "Individual Head" on the compost heap. You guys really are a piece of work if you think that us Aunt Sally's or the Crowman is going to swallow that daft excuse.

 

Still, I salute you for your untrammelled replies. I hope the Beetle Beer doesn't get you before we in the RSSG manage to get the best from you.

 

Eeberdip, werberdip, so it shall if ey's never eats anurther cream cake again so it should so I shall!

 

Regards,

 

One very amused guy.

[trent.barbeler]

Dear Leon,

 

Wonderful stuff about the cyclists and ball players. Have we moved forums since I last posted? Are we going on the gardening site next? My front lawn could do with a quick mow.

 

Steve Pope rang me yesterday. Lucky me. He was amazed at how fast I could type and how many words I could place on threads in an evening. Jesus Leon! What about you? And are we infact wasting our time.

 

Just imagine how many childrens books we could bash out in a week. Its good money writing childrens books you know. Or is that what we are doing already but dont realise it?

 

And if we are, how much money have we made so far?

 

Elton. ELTON! Ooh ELTON!!

[trent.barbeler]

Dear Leon,

 

And by the way, whilst we are talking about Steve Pope, well, I am, what about the guy?

 

He comes on here, posts a thread and pooff! Gone in a cloud of smoke like the magician on stage leaving us all as assistants in sparkly dresses wondering where the hell he's gone.

 

Alan Pearce is moaning because its hot under the stage lights and his lipstick is melting. Mike Heylins wig wont stay on the top of his bald head and says the blonde one fitted better for this gig, Pete Waller is moaning off-stage shouting that the script is all wrong. Tim Marks and Chris Burt are dancing alluringly in front of the gasping audience not saying anything because they cant remember their lines. You Leon are in the orchestra pit holding up prompting cards for Tim and Chris. Bruno is in the pub and missing all the fun (or is he?) whilst I, stand singing a rendition of "Mares eat oats and doe's eat oats but little lambs eat ivy" flinch but carry on like a true pro as Phil Hackett chucks his ice cream tub at me from the cheap seats.

 

And where exactly is the Great Popendo, master of illusion, great escape artist, whilst all this is going on top stage? Down below in the stage pit pint of beer in one hand and a smile a mile wide on his face.

 

You've got to hand it to the guy. He's a damn sight cleverer than we all are. Steve Pope posting a thread, just watch the posters pour in.

 

And I bet he's laughing his socks off right now.

 

I'm off to the pub with Bruno.

 

Regards,

 

Lee.

 

I might just check Tim and Chris's trouser pockets hanging in the dressing room for six quid on the way out. You never know your luck!

[Cranfield]

 

Why don,t you chaps book a room somewhere ?

[trent.barbeler]

Hi Cranfield,

 

Its already been booked. At the International Hotel as it happens and guess what?

 

Your yawning man will be there to.

 

Regards,

 

Lee.