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Hunting and Angling.


Nightwing

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Paul_H:

Say I lived in the London and owned 100 acres of woodland in Surrey with deer on some of which I wanted to shoot. How long would it take me as a non shooter who is not a member of a gun club and does not want to join one to legally obtain a rifle and have a go at shooting those deer? Could it be done (I don't know, but suspect it would be extremely difficult)?.

The most trouble caused in shooting is by people that take it up on a whim and expect to behave like something they see on the screen straight away.

You do not have to be a member of a gun club to buy a gun, no matter what your local police tell you. They are programmed to discourage shooting and to take as many guns as possible out of public hands.

If you owned a hundred acres of woods in Surrey, the deer numbers would have to be controlled by someone. It is possible to control deer numbers safely in a back garden if necessary. The police have a duty to protect the public from lunatics and irresponsible people and if you can convince them that you are neither, they would have a job to refuse you a firearm certificate. You must not have a criminal record of horrific proportions. You must not have 'intemporate habits' (more that 1 drunk driving conviction would be a no-no). You must not have 'known criminal associations'. You must not have served more than a certain amount of time in jail within a previous stipulated period. The values vary according to each other ie. the longer the time inside the longer you will have to be out before a certificate is granted. In a lot of cases you will never be able to even handle a firearm, let alone own one for the rest of your life.

I don't think that any lay person reading this, would find any of these requirements unreasonable.

The problem is the different ways in which different police forces operate the rules. If a person who is really keen to take up shooting and has the security arrangements for his guns of an agreed standard, and providing he/she is of sound mind and character, they should be able to get the necessary certificates. Everything is open to appeal and most police forces, who know they are acting in an unreasonable way, will back down in the face of having to stand up in front of a judge and jusify their decisions. 'Oh! horrendous expencifold' I here you say (with appologies to Stanley Unwin). If you have joined BASC and you are being dealt with unfairly in their eyes and have told the truth, your legal expenses should be no problem.

 

quote:
Or say I lived in London didn't want to join a gun club but wanted to buy a shotgun to do some clay pigeon shooting (don't know where yet), without owning any land or knowing anybody that owned land could I do this (once again I don't know)?.
Go along to a clay pigeon shooting ground and you will be introduced to the sport under tuition without the need for a license. Most grounds have their own shop and will be only too glad to help you get a shotgun certificate, especially if they think you will buy a gun from them. The clay pigeon shooting scene is a good one in which to learn safe gun handling for a beginner who has not been brought up in the country.

 

quote:
The ones that have, have been on things organised through work and these have all been target shoots rather than hunting.
Clay pigeon shooting can be a great stress reliever for people in the corporate world and the safe gun handling as mentioned above will be essential for all other shooting sports. Do not have anything to do with those paint-ball games. They just teach people to point guns at each other, a complete no-no in the real shooting world. As your friends go up the corporate tree, they should find that pheasant shooting will be a possibility, but they cannot expect to be as proficient at it as quickly as they were on clays. We see a lot more corporate days being sold on pheasant shoots these days. A lot of business is done in the shooting field, just like it is on golf courses.

 

quote:
Haveing not participated or even haveing friends who participate in the others sport we do not appreciate things in the same way.
The fact thet you can make this statement is much appreciated!!

 

Although I suspect that all that you have said is hypothetical and that you do not intend to embark on a shooting career, the fact the others have been able to read it and perhaps been encouraged to have a go at shooting is appreciated.

 

Jim Roper

https://www.harbourbridgelakes.com/


Pisces mortui solum cum flumine natant

You get more bites on Anglers Net

 

 

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Newt:
Jim - if you are using a .357 on foxes and rabbits, you really ought to get together with nightwind
When the ban on handguns was brought in in the UK, most police forces were so embarrassed that they replaced the handgun that had to be handed in, with a rifle of the same calibre on our certificates.

We are not aloud to use .357s on deer in this country. They are not powerful enough. We are allowed to use solid slugs from shotguns for deer but not pellets of any size except under very special circumstances where a rifle would be dangerous and where the deer are causing severe damage to crops.

I used to enjoy deer drives, and have never fired at one at what I consider to be the correct range (20 yards or less), with 00 buck, without it went down like a bag of S**T and died a lot quicker than from a heart/lung shot with a .270 or a .308.

 

We all seem to be typing and posting at the same time on this one.

 

Air rifles have to have a muzzle energy of 12 foot lbs or less and air pistols have to have a muzzle energy of 6 foot lbs or less to avoid the necessity of a firearm certificate.

 

Jim Roper

(A mine of useless information)

https://www.harbourbridgelakes.com/


Pisces mortui solum cum flumine natant

You get more bites on Anglers Net

 

 

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Great thread going here, I think the most successfull I have initiated!

Anyway, a couple of comments.

I am glad to see that the general hunting sports are not condemned. I can see where the difficulty in getting the needed licensing holds back so many in the U.K.

Jim, I'm not sure where you got the idea that hunting in the states is an expensive-long distace affair, but you could not be more wrong!

Opportunity is almost universal here for all kinds of small game such as fox, coyote, rabbit, upland birds, waterfowl(newt, us midwesterners have it good, with all the lakes and marshland around here), and a host of critters you all would be unfamiliar with.

As for big game such as deer, elk, moose, bear, mountain lion, antelope, and a few more rare goats and sheep, opportunity is nearly as widespread. Deer in particular are extremely common in almost all areas of the country, both wilderness and right into the urban city areas! In many areas, more "exotic" game such as elk, moose, bear, and lion, are just as common.

For example, I live in a moderate sized(500,000 population) city in western Michigan. Deer found not only throughout the outlying areas of the state, but in all but the heart of every city. In mine, I have deer wander through my apartment complex daily, and several are killed by auto's in the city limits every week.

I hunt several places, most within a 15 minute drive of my home, none more then 50 miles away.

My deer license for this year costs as follows.

General license, $27(this included two kill tags, one for a "mature buck, one for a deer of either sex).

Additionaly, due to the large deer population, I can purchase unlimited(yep, as many as I want) doe tags for $7 each.

So, I can hunt big game for $27 license, and at most, $10 in gas money(if I go up to our cabin), almost no cost for gas if I hunt around home here.

So lets say $100 U.S. for my deer hunting this year.

In addition, I have bear hunting(if I wanted too, that is), starting about 30 miles away, and Elk hunting less than 100 miles.

Bear tags cost $14, Elk tags are a bit more, at $100(also, very hard to draw in the drawing). All of these species are available on both private land(usually a pleasent request grants you permission, especialy with deer as the farmers a plagued with crop damage), and very extensive tracts of public land(I have a national forest of nearly a million acres less then 30 miles north of here).

Anyway, a fishing license cost me the same $27 as a deer license, and since travel costs are whatever I feel like, I can big game hunt for the exact same cost as fishing.

BTW, small game is $14, unless you are on private land, where it is free!

As a comparison

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Sorry about the double post, my webtv will not allow me to remove the second one!(if a mod reads this, please feel free to delete one of the previous double posts for space saving.) (note from Newt: double is gone)

 

Anyway, thought I would throw out a few bits on gun ownership here. As you might notice from Newt posts, every state in the U.S. acts almost like its own little country, and many fishing, hunting, and gun laws differ depending on where you live. There are some general similarities, especialy in overall gun ownership(where several national laws apply), but some do differ.

 

First, the basics.

In the U.S., purchase of long guns from a PRIVATE individual is almost entirely unregulated. While some states have additional restrition in some areas, the basics are as follows. While you are legaly obligated to meet minimum age laws(18 years), and not have had your ownership rights(a right, not a privilege here) revoked due to criminal activity, there is no obligation to fill out any paperwork, or obtain any licenses, to make a private gun purchase. The seller is not obligated to verify your legal status to own a firearm, its up to you to be honest. However, if you do obtain a gun when you are legaly not able too, it is a fellony.

Purchase of a hand gun is a slightly different story.

Rules vary greatly from state to state. In Michigan, purchase from a private individual DOES require a state pruchase permit, but no other permits or paperwork are require. Other states have additonal regulations when it comes to hand guns.

For long guns, however, there is NO federal paperwork or licene requred for ANY (long)gun purchase from a private, non-business licensed person.

It is up to you, the buyer, to be honest, but that is about it.

Neat, huh!

 

Now, to purchase a new gun, from a licensed dealer, there are a number of basic, but not difficult, regulations.

In Michigan, basic gun purchase laws from licensed dealers are as follows.

 

Air guns-no restrictions, no licensing, other then than you must be 18 years of age to purchase.

 

Muzzle loading firearms(long guns)-no legal restrictions other then, again, 18 years of age to purchase.

 

Muzzle loading handguns-see handgun purchsae section.

 

Long guns(rifles, shotguns, other than muzzle loaders). No licencing. Must be 18 years of age to purchase, must fill our a federal purchase form #4473(a 1 page basic info form), and must pass a simple background check. We have no waiting period, and the background check is done over the phone, from the store. Basicaly, unless you are a convicted fellon or have commited a serious violent crime, you can walk into a store and purchase a long gun of any most types over the counter.

Don't bother trying this if you are a fellon, as thats what the background check is for, and if you have a record, it will flag it!

 

Carying a long gun-Long guns may be carried most places, but must be unloaded while in a vehicle. As with handguns, businesses may restrict or deny firearms on premisis.

 

Handguns- 18 years of age to purchase from a private individual, 21 to pruchase from a licensed business.

State of Michigan purchase permit required to purchase. These are available at all police dept., and cost $5.

Usually available over the counter, but may take a day or two to get approved for. By law, you cannot be denied unless you fail the background check.(same one as is done for long guns). Once the permit is obtained(its good for 10 days), you can purchase a handgun over the counter from any gun store. Same 4473 form is completed at the store at time of sale, and NO backgroud check is required(you already did that to get the purchase permit).

As with long guns, there is no waiting period, so same-day purchase is the norm.

 

Carying a handgun- NO permit(other than your owners permit) is required to cary a handgun UNconcealed. You can legaly cary a handgun in most areas(other then schools and government buildings) as long as it is visable. Businesses and municipalities have the right to restrict or deny firearms, so if there is a sign posted to that effect, you cannot cary a gun on those premisis.

To cary a handgun CONCEALED, you must obtain a CCW(Cary of Concealed Weapon)permit from the state. Michigan is an "open" conceal cary state, in that you cannot be denied this permit unless, again, you have commited a felony or violent crime. However, you must pass a 12 hour handgun safety class in order to obtain the permit. Denial rate for proper applications is less then 5%.

IF you have a CCW, then you do not need to get a purchase permit to obtain a handgun(you still have to pass the background check, however).

 

So, to purchase and own either a long gun or hand gun is really not very difficult, as long as you are not a fellon, or convicted violent criminal.

Minor crimes such as misdomeaners generaly have no bearing on gun purchases.

As I posted earlier, laws do vary a great deal from state to state, we opperate almost like a group of 50 small countries, so what I post here may not be the same for Newt, or Phone, or others.

Nationaly, however, long gun purchases are generaly very easy, and most places, so are handgun purchases.

 

[ 10. August 2002, 11:37 PM: Message edited by: Newt ]

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Very interesting reading the differences between UK and US and within your different states. In the UK our FAC paperwork is complex and long winded (probably and rightly deliberately). I shoot small bore in a local club with their rifles, in part so I can get an FAC in the future. I do however shoot air pistol competitevely and I'm on the club comittee. I want to shoot small bore pistols but they are almost completely excluded by our laws. There is currently one target (free) pistol which is technically legal due to the increased dimensions (longer barrel and overall gun length). Last I heard it was being considered for banning because it is still a pistol. Then we start getting into the politics of UK gun law......

 

That's all for now.

 

Rob.

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Do the UK regulations make any allowances for black powder guns as opposed to those that shoot modern shells?

" My choices in life were either to be a piano player in a whore house or a politician. And to tell the truth, there's hardly any difference!" - Harry Truman, 33rd US President

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i wait with intrest to the answer to that question newt

Believe NOTHING anyones says or writes unless you witness it yourself and even then your eyes can deceive you

None of this "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" crap it just means i have at least two enemies!

 

There is only one opinion i listen to ,its mine and its ALWAYS right even when its wrong

 

Its far easier to curse the darkness than light one candle

 

Mathew 4:19

Grangers law : anything i say will  turn out the opposite or not happen at all!

Life insurance? you wont enjoy a penny!

"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." Thomas Jefferson

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Newt:

Do the UK regulations make any allowances for black powder guns as opposed to those that shoot modern shells?

In the UK, you need an explosives license to hold black powder but not, I think, for Pyrodex.

 

Nightwing

How is the background check done? Do you have to produce an ID card or will a drivers license do?

 

I know people in the UK with more than one drivers license in different names. One that I can think of has served time for armed robbery.

 

In the UK, any reasonable application should be granted first time, unless the local police force have a policy of being 'unreasonable'. If a person is keen enough, they can partake in shooting in this country easy enough. The problem is that in the modern 'must have it know' society, people think any delay is unacceptable.

 

They don't object to having to pass a driving test before going out in a vehicle alone. Perhaps they think we should be able to buy a drivers license over the Post Office counter like in the old days. Boy racers kill more people than gun users, even after passing a driving test.

 

Handguns are banned in the UK along with pump action, fully and semi automatic centrefire rifles. Lever actions are not banned YET. Some estimates show at least 2,000 handguns a month being illegally imported.

 

Handguns that do not use cartriges are not banned, so black powder/pyrodex revolvers are still used.

 

The chances of being shot with a legally held handgun in the UK have not changed since the ban on them was introduced, but the person pulling the trigger will now be a police officer instead of someone they gave a certificate.

 

Please bare in mind, when it comes to distances to travel, that our petrol is about $6+ a gallon.

 

Jim Roper

 

http://www.searchlineuk.com/FishList.htm

http://www.thisisdorset.net

 

[ 11. August 2002, 01:44 AM: Message edited by: Jim Roper ]

https://www.harbourbridgelakes.com/


Pisces mortui solum cum flumine natant

You get more bites on Anglers Net

 

 

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Jim - is the black powder restriction a blanket one or can you hold small quantities (such as the amount required for black powder wepons)?

 

And if Pyrodex is allowed, it is probably a better idea anyway. Much easier to handle.

 

You may be interested to know that in the US, you cannot sell firearms by mail-order but the restriction does not apply to black powder or air powered guns. Them you can get online or mail-order from most sporting goods companies.

 

On an allied topic, how about bows and crossbows in the UK?

" My choices in life were either to be a piano player in a whore house or a politician. And to tell the truth, there's hardly any difference!" - Harry Truman, 33rd US President

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Jim, the background check is known as the National Instant Check System(NICS).

It is done over the phone, using a variety of information(Name, place of birth, Soc. security Number, ect.).

It is performed directly by the FBI at the NICS center in D.C, and can take anywhere from 2 minutes, to several days. Status is given as either a approval, or denial. If there is any question of a persons status to purchase a firearm, that person is put on "delay" until the questions can be answered. By law, a dealer can transfer(sell) the firearm if no final decision is made within 3 business days, but most dealers(the one I work for included), opt to wait however long it takes, so as not to transfer a gun to a non-complient person.

After some initial hiccups, this system is now fairly smooth, and has only occasional minor down-time. The center is on call at all times, so a verification can be made at any time.

With any firearm purchase, a valid current gov. issued ID, such as a Drivers license or state ID card, is required.

Fake licenses are diffult here(in Michigan, at least), because our drivers licenses have a scanner strip like a credit card with all the info on it.

Obviously, anything can be faked, but illegal gun purchases using fake I.D.s are extremely rare.

Truth is, if one is a criminal, they are not likely to try to make a purchase through a legit dealer, as they can do it "off the street" easy enough, and with not chance of getting caught by the system.

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