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The point I was making was that it sets a very dangerous precedent to compromise personal principles, purely to appease the land owner controlling a water. If such a person was to bar access to a water purely on the strength of a car sticker, it would only reinforce the point I was making about the abuse of privilege.

 

What would the stance be from a farmer who has leased his land to a club, assuming that he actually owns it outright? Does he stand by the stile, personally vetting each intruder? You make it sound as if angling is in danger of becoming on a par with certain exclusive golf clubs. Hell's teeth, they'll be banning women from the banks next, never mind about those black chappies.

 

When it comes to my personal income, I would be deliriously happy to match that of even the poorest farmer, although come to that, the only farmer I've ever heard of who doesn't drive an upmarket four wheeler and own a tasteless Lego mansion is my own uncle; but there again, he doesn't own a tract of prime farm land bordering a lucrative stretch of river.

 

I can assure you I have absolutely nothing against farmers per se, only the ones who moan about the government and the EU, whilst simultaneously claiming over-generous subsidies, provided by their supposed adversaries.

 

I'm very impressed by your intimate relationships with 250 farmers though, as I can't claim to know even a tiny fraction of that number of people in total. I obviously don't get out enough.

 

[ 18. August 2002, 11:29 PM: Message edited by: Peter Sharpe ]

English as tuppence, changing yet changeless as canal water, nestling in green nowhere, armoured and effete, bold flag-bearer, lotus-fed Miss Havishambling, opsimath and eremite, feudal, still reactionary, Rawlinson End.

 

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Lee, the point about farmers is a well made one. Yes, we do depend on the goodwill of many farmers.

 

I grew up and was educated in an agricultral society, and I have many good friends who are both farmers & riparian owners. Not all are CA supporters by any means. Unless tenants themselves, few appear to actually support fox hunting over their land due to the destruction caused by a passing hunt.

 

Yes, I am fortunate that I have access to the Broads from the end of my garden. You'd be welcome if you are up this way. I also depend on farmers for access to most of the rivers that I bank fish from.

 

The point raised bu Miasma is also a good one. It is no longer a CA march, it is a Liberty & Livelyhood march. Ummmmmmmmmmm, fall for that one if you will!

 

I still maintain that Angling needs to stand up to the CA. I still maintain that there are many countryside issues that we, as caring human beings, must sympathise with. But don't lets be blinded by the smokescreen.

 

DCB is also in tune with the CA, his opinion also deserves respect.

 

Scoobs raises the point that I appear to be talking on his behalf. Fair point, but Scoobs, I'm not. Well, not intentionally.

 

But the CA is giving the impression that it is intentionally talking on my behalf, its not.

 

There is a need for a countryside body, but I don't believe the CA, with its history, is the one for the job. I'm convinced that there is a hidden agenda and I don't like being used.

 

If we show our disapproval of the CA we might loose a farmers goodwill, if we show our approval of the CA then we might loose the goodwill of the public at large.

 

[ 19. August 2002, 06:32 PM: Message edited by: Peter Waller ]

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Dear Pete, (Sharpe)

 

The reason why I know so many farmers personally is because I deal with most of them through business. I have lost count of the amount of stables, barns, houses, and repairs/alterations to houses that I have undertaken for the farming community.

 

I also specialise in building extensions and repairs on the ancient homes and property that the landed gentry own. Lords, Dukes, Earls, those sort of people. Nothing special. Its just how I make my living that brings me into contact with so many farming families.

 

Also, I have on occasion, attended various Hunt Balls and Earth-stoppers Suppers in the company of farmers, hunters, and the landed gentry.

 

Within this circle of rural folk and personal friends, it is fair to say that I am regarded as a bit of an oddity. I have been known when having drunk one too many, to sing the Red Flag out loud at Hunt Balls. Much to the disgust of the "snob" hunting folk (mostly new money that moves into the countryside. The ones who complain the cows are mooing too loudly at night!) and to the genuine humour of Tory voting farmers and landed gentry who all, take my own sense of humour all in good fun.

 

Where I live, slap bang in the heartland of shooting and hunting country, men are measured by whats in their hearts. Not by how much money or land they have, or by what particular political party they support. Men are men here. Simply that. We all belong to a sprawling rural community. Much the same as anywhere else in "turnipland" anywhere in the country. Here, there "IS" a sense of belonging. A genuine community spirit where everyone knows each other, where everyone helps their neighbour in times of trouble. And in the good times, we all share a few drinks together at country social functions or in the local pub. Here, titled folk buy their rounds of drinks, laugh, and yes swear, just the same, in the same company whether that be gentlemen farmers or labourers that live or work in the countryside. For us, there is NO class barrier or political barrier. We simply live together and take everyone at face value.

 

Having said that, I am NOT a member of the CA. One of the few within my wide circle of friends who are not. As yet, the CA as far as angling is concerned just doesn't ring my bell. I truly believe, with a passion, that angling is big enough to stand on its own feet once it gets itself organised properly. Which it HAS NOT yet done in my opinion. No need to bang on about that here because all concerned know my views on that subject. A subject I might add that I will fight tooth and nail to try and put right if I am able.

 

But I AM growing increasingly concerned with all this CA bashing that is going off on here and on other angling mediums. Why are anglers so fearful of the CA? Especially when the CA will NOT get the rank and file, the ordinary course angler joining the CA?

 

I suspect, that the real reason behind the anti-CA opinions is not for fear of angling supporting the CA, but one of a genuine dislike for what they see the CA standing for. Hunting in their eyes probably.

 

Well, I can tell you all this absolutely. To the overall majority of CA members/supporters that I know personally, most of my local friends in fact, hunting is way down on the list of reasons why they support the CA. Yes, some are avid hunt participants or hunt supporters. But these really are in the minority where I live in the heart of Belvoir and Quorn hunting country.

 

A lot shoot. A lot don’t shoot. Some like horse riding or point-to-point. Show jumping and so forth. Two blacksmiths I know who don’t hunt or shoot support the CA. And contrary to what others might assume, these blacksmiths businesses DONT rely on hunting related business. They openly admit that the bulk of their business comes via none hunting customers.

 

Farmers, both shooting and none shooting are in CA. So are many of their workers. Shopkeepers, pub landlords, postmasters and mistresses, postmen, none shooting/hunting joiners, bricklayers, plumbers. All sorts of people living in the country are members of the CA. All for their own particular reasons most of which are NOT in support of hunting.

 

These country folk believe, rightly in their own hearts, perhaps not in mine, YET, that they are country folk now living under siege from outside influences that seek to change their way of life. Their communities, and the way they live and work in them.

 

They have come together with a terrific sense of "community" spirit where they all accept that they must stand together. Or have their interests swept aside.

 

In reality, there is a whole lot more to the CA becoming more and more popular in rural area's than most imagine. For them, and to some extent me, its far more than the hunting issue.

 

Rural Shops, post offices, schools, bus routes, train services, have all faced the axe for no good reason. Bit by bit, country folk ARE loosing these amenities. And they see more loses coming.

 

So hunting faces the axe. What next? Shooting? Then what? Fishing? Who knows for certain. It is a fool that believes everything that a domestic politician says. With so many broken promises coming from politicians of all parties, country folk are joining something that stands for THEM. Their rights, their way of life.

 

And if anyone tells you that the CA will crumple if foxhunting goes? Tell them RHUBARB!! Because they don’t live in the countryside OR know the mind set that country folk now have.

 

If foxhunting goes there will be a massive rush from country folk to join the CA and from townsfolk that shoot or whatever who are not yet CA members. Then watch the CA become really powerful.

 

But even then, CA will not get course angling rushing to join them. To move or mobilise rank and file angling, there will have to be mini atom bombs free in the Angling Times or Anglers Mail before it jumps anywhere.

 

As for David Bird being in tune with the CA? David holds certain concerns that I do with regard to what some are saying about angling practices within CA. All is NOT as rosy as it could or should be within the CA Go Fishing campaign. But then again, All is NOT rosy within the SAA either, so the old saying comes to mind, "Those that live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones"

 

Oh. And before I go. Here's a little snippet of information for you Peter (Waller)

 

David Bird has his concerns about many things to do with the CA that’s true. I have heard most of them personally at one time or another. But has "HE" gone to the Houses of Parliament yet to have a meeting with the "angling supremo" Martin Salter to discuss "Live baiting"?

 

No? Yes? Probably no. Minutes of that meeting sent to me please David if you have.

 

Well Charlie Jardine is. Tomorrow infact.

 

Seems the CA are better connected than some thought. Seems the CA are already on the case for predator anglers.

 

Regards,

 

Lee.

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being this Anglers Net, the most popular angling site so far, and this subject of the CA. and only 6 or so idividual posters, puts things in perspective a little, we fish, and will always fish, fishing in the uk will never be banned, call me nieve tosser what ever, but you are all wasting your time arguing, do any of you know how long the idea of angling banishing has been going on, and how close you thought it was when you posted, im sure alot of you get buzed up at every litle attack on angling and run to the front to defend our pastime, argument within just makes me laugh, pointless, its my 36th birthday tomorrow and im taking gary and one of my sons fishing, then on the weekend we have a fishin at Hazell court for ziptrev from maggotdrowners, and nothing is going to stop that, and im sure you all feel the same.

Smelly nets.

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If the Countryside Alliance had been instigated by committees of village folk, fighting to preserve their post offices and public transport systems, and to halt the corruption of local planning departments by developers, then I would quite probably have given them my full support. Instead, it has been hihacked by the types of people who parade their red hunting jackets, ( I refuse to use their colour-blind description of pink), in the village pubs, and seem to think they have the god-given right to trespass in woods and gardens in pursuit of their prey. Des Taylor's talk of fighting to preserve his yeoman heritage only serves to sicken me further.

 

I am beginning to worry about the campaign to retain livebaiting. The complaints about Martin Salter's supposed fish handling crimes really emphasise my concerns. If a few anglers can get so furious over such innocent photo's, just imagine what the general public would make of a picture of a livebait dangling on treble hooks. Although I used to livebait, this has suddenly made me think that a campaign to save it would be dangerously counter-productive. It would be even more damaging if it was seen to be supported by the "blood-thirsty slaughterers" of the Countryside Alliance. I have a feeling though, that rather than being genuinely outraged by the pictures, these are Tories looking to score cheap points against a Labour politician. These same people are probably those who support the pro-livebaiting campaign. A bit of an own goal there I think.

 

As Lee says, if fox hunting is banned, the CA might be free to concentrate on the issues that are really affecting countryside dwellers, rather than concentrating on preserving the gruesome rituals of the landed gentry.

English as tuppence, changing yet changeless as canal water, nestling in green nowhere, armoured and effete, bold flag-bearer, lotus-fed Miss Havishambling, opsimath and eremite, feudal, still reactionary, Rawlinson End.

 

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I Fish & I hunt.

 

I am quite happy to go out in the fields & kill some rabbits or a charlie (fox) but unlike "the hunt" i don't waste the animal.

 

I don't agree with "the hunt" never have never will.

 

Farmers rich!!! try telling my mate that, he drives a beat up old renault van because he can't afford anything better, i've turned up at his place at 4am & he's already been hard at work & still going when i've left well after darkness fell, he's really rolling in it by the sounds of things.

 

The CA are fighting for all country side issues including the rights of farmers?? so why didn't they come into being untill after the hunting ban was proposed??

 

I never really gave a damn about the CA untill i had my "conversation" with a CA supporter, now as far as i'm concerned they're nothing of interest to me & if any of the other members have the same views as the "gentleman" i spoke with then angling should have nothing to do with them either.

 

Gray

 

You say angling will never be banned..

 

its slowly being whittled away mate take a look at the live bait ban, when the hunts banned the anti's are going to turn all their might against something else & i truly believe the target will be angling.

 

This goverment are a bunch of wimps & dreamers (bambi thinks he's a president & his wife is refered to as the UK's first lady!!) the goverment "officials" are off galavanting all over the world sorting out everyone elses troubles while our own just get ignored.

 

The anti's are slowly "taking over the asylum".

TROGG (Alan)

a government is there to serve its people not rule them

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