A call to arms.

[Alan Fawcett]

I always thought Guiness was an irish drink??

 

Sorry fellas but this seriously needs a tension breaker!!

 

I know ..we could always try going fishing

[Peter Waller]

Irish with a small 'i' alan, you should know better!

 

Granted they are a strange race but, oh dear, not with a small 'i'.

 

Nip into an Irish tackle shop to buy a landing net for pike and you'll probably be sold a pick-axe handle! As I said, strange race! They have this wonderful naturel resorce and what do some of them do, they destroy it. But atleast they keep brewing Guiness for Lee!

[phil hackett]

Originally posted by trent.barbeler:

[QB]Dear Alan,

 

"......And as for the SAA? You can remain in the same furrow plodding the same course all you like. Or you can look for changes in its PR, suggest changes infact like we have, and begin to plough the whole field. Attract more members. Get more people involved. Get the SAA properly funded. Thats the RSSG vision....."

 

And of the RSSG PR machine then Lee?

[trent.barbeler]

Dear Phil,

 

Is that really the best you can do?

 

Oh yes. I forgot.

 

Regards,

 

Lee.

[Newt]

Attack & debate issues as long as your fingers hold out gents.

 

But if this thing gets any more personal (even on the somewhat lofty plane as it has to now) then I'll lock it.

[barbelfishingRay]

Alan Roe:

Dear Lee I take great offence to your remarks. I have indeed hunted myself in the dim and distant past (the 1970s) riding as a guest at the Gothland hunt.

So yes I do have first hand experience of the process and the people. Kindly use a little consideration when attempting  to rubbish the considered thoughts of others especially when you are blissfully ignorant about them or their lives.

 

Further I have had experience of the antics of some of the hunters at other hunts notably in the south west.

 

The reality is that whether you like it or not... the public perception of hunting with dogs is the classical one I laid out as before, you have to remember that the vast majortiy of the population is urban and not rural....This may have escaped your notice! Few local 'Characters'in Blackpool hunt with lurchers....Nowadays this type of 'character' is robbing CD systems out of your car or flogging drugs.

 

That is why the anti's attack fox hunting in particular as it is an easy high profile target for reasons of the ease with which they can show to the townies some of the more distastful aspects of the hunt as well as utilise the social class element.

 

As I said before in a point that you so obviously missed in you ignorance and bigotry when you went for the attack on me. This administration would not have even considered the introduction of legislation had hunting been a black, gay or urban issue

 

Now I suggest fella that you wake up and smell the coffee and accept that whatever good the gentry do for their local communities such work is commonly ignored by the vast majority of the urban population as they have no contact with it.

 

Perceptions of social class still divide this country and will continue to hold it back for many generations to come as there are too many vested interests ready to maintain tension and hatred for it to be dropped.

 

To overlook the value of perception over truth is to bury your  head in the sand when it comes to these sorts of interests.

 

As somebody who has voluntarily placed themselves in the vanguard of angling politcs with the defence of our pastime as a central part of it's core, your lack of strategic vision quite frankly alarms me.

 

To attempt to attack me without being in possession of any knowledge about me I would regard as showing worrying signs of arrant stupidity at best and I have to wonder at your fitness to continue to take a leading role within anglings body politic where a wider 'real world' view is needed

Dear Alan,

This is my first post on Anglersnet and it is a shame it has to be in response to your attack on the population of Blackpool and the 'Gay

and 'Black' population of this wonderful Country of ours.

 

Given the words in your post, you have now probably alienated all of these people against angling.

 

What on earth has being Gay, Black or living in Blackpool got to do with this thread??????

 

You clearly hold some sinister views about our present government.

 

I see that Lee has answered your post, so I will not enter into your

argument but what I will say is this, Lee Fletcher has mine and the whole of the RSSG committee's 100% support in matters pertaining to the SAA/NAA and angling politics in general.

 

You appear to think that Lee should not be in angling politics, are you also suggesting that he should not be the voice of the RSSG at political level. If so Alan, then please attend the RSSG AGM get yourself proposed and seconded and stand against Lee.

 

I look forward to seeing you at the AGM Alan but I won't hold my breath.

Regards

Ray Wood

RSSG Chairman

[Alan Roe]

Dear Ray

Should you read my post with some care you would realise that I have not attacked the black ,gay populations or that of Blackpool.

 

Rather I have flagged up the fact that the present government have in part at least due to ongoing social class divides, been able to consider a ban on the wholly legitimate activities of on small group in society I have done so by pointing out that there are many other social groups against whom a ban on any activity that forms a tennant of their culture would have been unthinkable citing two of the groups in question.

 

Yes I do seriously question the antics of the present government and I belive that the proposed hunting ban was a handy device for helping the governmet get out of a sticky period when other embarassing facts where starting to emerge about it's failures in other policy areas. It diverted attention long enough for them to get over that patch.

 

I also have little doubt that despite anglings numerical strength politicians would sacrifice us in the name of retaining power should the need arise though I can't see that happening in the very near future.

 

The other issue that I was flagging up is the fact that the vast majority of Britains population is now an urban one. the bulk of that part of the population is largely dependant on the media for its understanding of the hunting with dogs issue and once more I stress that the the largest part of the images that they get fed by the news media are fairly classical scenes based on fox hunting.

Think about it when was the last time you saw a programme of the working terrier or lurchers??

 

It is true that the majority of people don't normally think about the issue however if you ask them they will generally opine that it is cruel despite a lack of knowledge or interest in the subject.

 

Why do you think that the anti's have been so successful it has been because that they have consistently peddled a potent mix of images of apparent cruelty to fluffy objects and a leavening of class envy at another level.

 

They have been further helped by lousy PR from the hunting side which untill recently when the CA started to get it's PR act together made life a doddle for the anti's.

 

The truth is that in the hunting debate and in the other debates around shooting and angling the first casualty in the fight for the hearts and minds of the bulk of the population will be the truth!

 

The thing that will be used will be the manipulation of perception by imagery and that is where the anti's have one of their great strengths they are very aware of the way the urban population tends to think and that is why the operate in the manner that they do.

 

It is the apparent lack of awareness of this reality that causes me to have concerns particularly in relation too angling.

 

Angling's spokespeople have to be aware of the wider issues and the way in which the urban population tends to view us and to develop strategies to reach out to those people in the towns and cities as it is they in the longer term that who hold the key to angling and all other country sports future.

 

As for the RSSG you are quite correct I will not be attending the AGM I have to say that from a personal perspective all I have seen from it's primary spokesman is a great deal of windbagging and posturing at an SAA meeting about what this group is going to do and his failure to turn up at the Barbel Society conference after he had agreed to do so.

 

As yet I have to see a single positive evidenced artibutable achievement and I belive that the group is liable to be the vehicle for the ambitions of it's current leader and little else.

 

This may be due to a lack of communication if so I await to be proved wrong with baited breath for a newsletter of some kind to inform me of all the dynamic changes for the better that the RSSG has made in angling.......Somehow I feel that I hadn't best hold my breath for too long!!

[trent.barbeler]

Dear Alan,

 

Using your last post, I will respond to your words seeing as I am again being criticised by you. But before I do Alan, please be aware that I accept these criticism's as genuine concerns you hold not only for what the RSSG is doing, but my own ability as acting for the organisation. Of course Alan, my response is one based on truth and honesty as I'm sure is yours given information concerning the RSSG presently available to you. All will be fully explained by using your post in answer to your questions/concerns. From that Alan, please feel free to futher question anything you like either concerning the RSSG, or my own ability to act as its General Secretary here on an open forum for all to read. But be aware from the onset, my reponse will be totally open OK.

 

"Dear Ray

Should you read my post with some care you would realise that I have not attacked the black ,gay populations or that of Blackpool".

 

Agreed Alan. How I read that part was that you implied that if certain minority groups went foxhunting, a government that seemed to favour minority group situations might not have sought the ban. Am I right? Personally, I think that that train of thought is purely speculative. Some might say daft. Irrespective of ones minority class (foxhunters are a minority group), I still feel confident that MP's opposed to foxhunting base their strong feelings held, on the cruelty issue.

 

"Rather I have flagged up the fact that the present government have in part at least due to ongoing social class divides, been able to consider a ban on the wholly legitimate activities of on small group in society I have done so by pointing out that there are many other social groups against whom a ban on any activity that forms a tennant of their culture would have been unthinkable citing two of the groups in question".

 

I rather feel that the reality as you describe it might be a different one. The above is merely a scenario based on what?

 

"Yes I do seriously question the antics of the present government and I belive that the proposed hunting ban was a handy device for helping the governmet get out of a sticky period when other embarassing facts where starting to emerge about it's failures in other policy areas. It diverted attention long enough for them to get over that patch".

 

Here Alan, I absolutely agree with you. How many times have we seen the foxhunting debate brought forward, riding straight past many other far more crucial debates in Parliament, to be used to placate back bench rebels in order to steer them away from criticising the present governments blunders? Spot on in my opinion. And alarmingly Alan, could other issues be used in exactly the same way by any government keeping issues on the back burner for similar use? Shooting. Falconry. Fishing even? Domestic politicians have a habit of using old tools that proved effective before. As such, how many other pastimes will be used as a ransom kept on hold for political back benchers? The political scene has changed rapidly beyond all previous recognition. "Spin" is here to stay. And all political parties will use this new tool for their own continuence.

 

"I also have little doubt that despite anglings numerical strength politicians would sacrifice us in the name of retaining power should the need arise though I can't see that happening in the very near future".

 

You could, I say "could" be on dangerous ground here Alan. The present government has so far maintained that angling is "safe". That government declaration makes me laugh whilst giving me cause for concern at the same time. Its humourous to think that ANY government would make such a statement given that recreational fishing, a socially interactive, quiet, benefitial contributor to the national economy in substantial terms would be classified as "safe" in their high opinion. Whilst I trully believe fom past experiences anyway, that a Tory government would be puzzled if angling asked the question "Is Angling Safe?" we all must be aware that politics of the domestic sort is a moving sea of sand that changes its directions rapidly. We must be sharp and maintain a watching brief. But having realised that, angling politicians must be careful, or mindful, of what they say or assume about present governments in power. We all have to deal with them and their agencies at the end of the day. Maintaining good working relationships if vital. And slagging of governments on public forums in the name of angling politics does these relationships no good whatsoever seeing as these threads ARE read by MP's and their teams of PR people regularly. Not so regularly as us Alan but you get my drift.

 

One of the major reasons why I openly criticise anglings PR is because I have the foresight to see that when angling properly funds itself, it will it become all powerful against ANY government. You yourself quite rightly say that government uses issues to placate back benchers. This will continue to be a trend. It is only when all anglers have the oportunity to join their governing body, the NAA, that angling becomes one national organisation with substantial funds. Funds that enable it to have professional people representing it. Funds that will enable it to mount professional campaigns against the anti-angling ones. Funds that will result in angling having a up to date organisation. And a membership of the size that NO government would dare to hold to ransom. Either for back benches or anywhere else. Numbers calculate in politicians minds as prospective votes. If angling became one block, one unit, we would have true strength.

 

"The other issue that I was flagging up is the fact that the vast majority of Britains population is now an urban one. the bulk of that part of the population is largely dependant on the media for its understanding of the hunting with dogs issue and once more I stress that the the largest part of the images that they get fed by the news media are fairly classical scenes based on fox hunting".

 

Sorry Alan, I still dont agree with you here. There are a host of popular programes made by TV companies that relate to the countryside. None of which have a foxhunting content. Whilst these programes differ from region to region, they are there in place none the less. Quite a lot infact, that deal with subjects ranging from rural gardens, rural architecture, country walks, country crafts, etc etc.

 

"Think about it when was the last time you saw a programme of the working terrier or lurchers??"

 

I'm going to give you that one Alan. But be assured such programes HAVE been shown before. Jack Hargreaves. Remember him. Not relevant today I know. And there have been more recently produced documentories based on the lives of poachers, gamekeepers, and the terriers and lurchers they owned. The plain fact is Alan, TV companies buy and show films/documentories that they KNOW will recieve viewing figures. And the fact is, country pursuits of all kinds, including foxhunting, dont rate very high, or high at all, on the viewing figures. TV companies will glady confirm this fact. As I said previously Alan, urban populations dont give a fig about rural sporting stuff. If they did, the TV channels would be brimming with it. Here Alan, the TV consumer says it all.

 

"It is true that the majority of people don't normally think about the issue however if you ask them they will generally opine that it is cruel despite a lack of knowledge or interest in the subject."

 

Agree Alan. But isn't that the same with loads of issues when confronted by someone with a clip board on the high street? Or when some faceless person rings you up (mostly at meal times) asking for your opinions on this or that? Personally speaking, my view of polls now a days is sceptical. Which poll for instance predicted that at the last general election, only just over half of the electorate would bother to turn out? You just cant rely on polls to be accurate now a days because peoples lives are so fast. They either dont respond at all or are prone to give a quick answer so as to enable them to carry on with their shopping.

 

"Why do you think that the anti's have been so successful it has been because that they have consistently peddled a potent mix of images of apparent cruelty to fluffy objects and a leavening of class envy at another level".

 

Put me right here Alan. Where have the anti's been so successful since the seal and fur coat issue? We still see sharks slaughtered in their millions for fin products, still see dolphins being drowned in pair trawl nets, still see bass spawning grounds raped by pair trawlers. Where is PETA? And what are they doing to stop these practices? From what I have recieved, its mostly angling organisations taking on this plight for these poor creatures. Dont get me wrong Alan, its a good thing that anglers care. But it does highlight the fact that the anti-brigade pick and choose sparsely.

 

"They have been further helped by lousy PR from the hunting side which untill recently when the CA started to get it's PR act together made life a doddle for the anti's".

 

Once again. I agree. Fowhunting's PR left a whole lot to be desired. Bagging foxes for when VIP's came a hunting is one prime example. An example that happened, and was filmed, on my own doorstep! Plus a host of other events in the hunting fraternity that frankly, should NOT have been allowed to carry on. I suppose they thought under a landslide Tory government they were safe. Now of course, they bitterly regret not dealing with their PR a whole lot more effectively than they undoubtedly didn't as you rightly say Alan.

Now you can appreciate that my foresight in trying to get angling having better PR is undoubtedly one crucial aspect of getting the angling message across not only to our nations anglers, who are prospective NAA members, but to the general public who are not. PR. Extremely important as you say Alan.

 

"The truth is that in the hunting debate and in the other debates around shooting and angling the first casualty in the fight for the hearts and minds of the bulk of the population will be the truth!"

 

Spot on Alan. Effective PR. Its the name of the game.

 

"The thing that will be used will be the manipulation of perception by imagery and that is where the anti's have one of their great strengths they are very aware of the way the urban population tends to think and that is why the operate in the manner that they do."

 

Spot on AGAIN Alan! PR. PR. PR. Thats our weapon. And our salvation.

 

"It is the apparent lack of awareness of this reality that causes me to have concerns particularly in relation too angling."

 

PR. Once again. We NEED better PR.

 

"Angling's spokespeople have to be aware of the wider issues and the way in which the urban population tends to view us and to develop strategies to reach out to those people in the towns and cities as it is they in the longer term that who hold the key to angling and all other country sports future".

 

Brilliant! My sentiments exactly Alan. A proper, effective PR machine can only run if its fed by money. Individual membership within the NAA will provide loads of money for getting angling an effective, professional PR machine running. Place a proposal before the next SAA meeting for the NAA to have individual memberships and I will second it. Your absolutely spot on Alan. Lets get the ball rolling.

 

"As for the RSSG you are quite correct I will not be attending the AGM I have to say that from a personal perspective all I have seen from it's primary spokesman is a great deal of windbagging and posturing at an SAA meeting about what this group is going to do and his failure to turn up at the Barbel Society conference after he had agreed to do so".

 

Oh dear. And we were getting along so well. Righty oh. I'm in the dock. Truth time Alan.

 

Firstly, none attendance at the Barbel Society meeting;

 

Steve Pope graciously allowed the RSSG a space at their annual conference to allow us to "openly recruit new RSSG members". Not only was this a marvelous gesture from Steve Pope, it was also offered to the RSSG free of charge. Steve has always maintained openly that he would like to see the RSSG idea work. He has also

given us a presence on the BS website.

 

Unfortunately on the day in question, Ray, Steve and myself had other personal comittments that arose after Steve gave us the invitation. because of the short notice, we were unable to get others to appear on the RSSG's behalf in a way as to make our presence effective.

 

"I have seen from it's primary spokesman is a great deal of windbagging and posturing at an SAA meeting about what this group is going to do"

 

I'll deal with the windbagging first OK Alan.

Was this "windbagging" when I spoke about;

 

Better PR for the SAA?

 

Stating when asked by David Bird, that the RSSG WOULD NOT becoming the SAA rivers group? Stating further that we wanted to retain our own identity but outside of that, we would help as much as possible?

 

Stating in the debate about the SAA NOT having its own photographic library for use in its own magazine, that the RSSG leadership might like to ask the RSSG membership to donate their slides to the SAA for their own use and forego any royalty rights in the proccess? Frankly, the RSSG personel who attended that meeting were amazed that the specialist angling body didn't have a library already.

 

Stating that the RSSG was prepared to fill the rivers gap within SAA and were prepared to help out as much as they could in this vital area?

 

Actively joining in on all debates with confidence and a genuine willingness to bring ideas to the table?

 

And after the SAA meeting; I offered my personal services to the SAA as its Rivers Coordinator. Offered to help out Chris Burt do the stand at shows where the SAA attends. Oh yes, and purchased a A3 printer, A3 laminator, paper, inks, to make sure that the SAA had A3 printing facilities on tap so as to alter SAA presentations at shows as and when issues crop up that we want to cover quickly. Although Chris did offer to possibly sort out a donation towards this new printing equipment via the SAA, I told him not to bother as a needed the same for my business anyway. Infact Alan, I lied. All of my copying printing is done via copying machine because construction drawings are just too big for A3. No complaints though. I purchased the equipment myself to help out. And save the SAA some funds. Call it a contribution if you like.

 

Posturing? That ones got me. Oh Yes! I remember. Was that when David Bird came up with that brilliant idea for a discussion when Barry Rickards left to go home before the meeting ended? You know Alan, cant you remember? We can. Because we minuted the whole meeting in fine detail ourselves. If you can recal, I was the first to state catergorically that what Dadid wanted to discuss, could not, under any circumstaces, be dicussed in the way he wanted it doing. Infact, I was one of the first if not THE first to suggest a proper, more diplomatic way of doing it. Do you want me to post our FULL minuted transcript of that particular event openly on this site Alan? If we are going to tell the truth, lets DO IT. The RSSG has nothing to hide.

 

"As yet I have to see a single positive evidenced artibutable achievement and I belive that the group is liable to be the vehicle for the ambitions of it's current leader and little else".

 

I will reply to that fully after the paragraph below Alan.

 

"This may be due to a lack of communication if so I await to be proved wrong with baited breath for a newsletter of some kind to inform me of all the dynamic changes for the better that the RSSG has made in angling.......Somehow I feel that I hadn't best hold my breath for too long!!"

 

Newletter first OK Alan. You are absolutely right about lack of communication in the RSSG. I will offer no excuses just merely the facts OK.

 

When the RSSG was being formed, I ran myself ragged just getting the proccess of it being formed. In reality, we didn't do a bad job getting done what we did so quickly. You will appreciate for instance it can take an aweful long time getting a new logo agreed. The SAA experience will bear this out. Also, drafting a constitution and set of rules can be mindblowingly slow. Getting the same agreed in a meeting can be worse. We did extremely well on both counts due to a one Paul Whitting who did the logo and caring comitted anglers that attended both formation meetings.

 

Anyway, we got formed. But there were gaps in our officer positions. We could not get anyone to help out doing a newsletter. (newsletter team) We could also not get anyone to take up office as Social/Fundraising Officer. (or team) Hence. No newsletter as yet. I accept full responsibility for not doing it myself. But getting the RSSG up and running in the first plkace actually made me ill Alan. So for a short while, I decided to take a break, spend sometime with my family. We do have a newsletter team now on the way (ourselves)and hope to have enough of interest to fill it before Christmas.

 

Social and Fundraising still remains vacant. But here again, our committee are going to have to take this on as well as their other duties. As an RSSG member Alan, what will YOU do to help us out?

 

Fortunately, Graham Elliot has organised a fish-in on the River Loddon where part of the money raised will go towards the RSSG and part to the Macmillan Nurses. This event in actual fact, is a weekend affair that will be thronging with RSSG members. As such, I suppose one might like to call this event partly the first RSSG anual fish-in which is what most specialist angling organisations have. So all in all, with the tremdous help from Graham, we have not done that badly on that score seeing as we have only been properly formed since early March of this year.

 

Tell me who else has achieved the same in such a short space of time?

 

Please be aware that our newletter was very much dependant on our involvement within the SAA for its political content. So far, we have recieved nearly nothing from the SAA by way of asking us to be involved in anything. Save for one issue that local anglers had campaigned agaist well before it was passed on to us. That issue got concluded by local anglers one week after we offered our help.

 

Outside of the SAA or NAFAC (weve heard nothing from them either);

 

We are currently talking to a campaign on the River Tees concerning the passage of migatory fish.

 

We are also starting to talk to many different angling organisations concerning a problem that has decimated fish stocks already.

Unfortunately for one particular river, we may be too late to avoid a catastrophe. But hopefully, through hard work and determination, our collective efforts might stop it from happening elsewhere. I am unable to say more than that at this stage due to the fact that others are invoved and we are not yet ready to go public on the issue. On this occasion, the RSSG is not alone and has others concerns to think of.

 

All we want, is for the RSSG to be involved in the way the SAA promised we would be. Pitching in. Helping out. Drafting responces, being a part of what we joined. Exactly what is wrong with that? How can the SAA be representing its membership groups/individuals if no one ever gets consulted or asked to be involved? I've asked this question before Alan. Please be so good or honest to answer it seeing as I've answered all of your questions and observations openly.

 

For your information Alan, I am NOT the RSSG's leader. We dont have one. What we do have is a group of officers that have been democratically elected. All with their own job to do but now its seems, with more to do because we are struggling to get people to do certain tasks.

 

I repeat. You are member Alan. What are you prepared to do?

 

What we do have, within the RSSG committee are spokesmen. Ray is one, and I am the other. This was agreed and voted upon at the last and final formation meeting of the RSSG in the absence of a media officer post being filled.

 

As it happens, Ray has a lot of things going on that prevents him saying a lot. And as I can type five times faster than he can, I do most of the "saying" part for the RSSG. Always I might add in consultation with the others heading up the RSSG's political team. Now what that in effect means, is that its my tin hat that sticks up above the parapet wall. So I take the bullets and the flak. But hey, I accept that as part of the territory.

 

So come on Alan. Lets kiss and make up. Sooner or later we will so why wait? I'll have a shave if you will so as to make the experience less bristly.

 

Regards,

 

Lee.

 

--------------------

Cheers

Alan

all

[Alan Roe]

Dear Lee

Firstly an apology for not responding sooner however a combination of work and some fishing have kept me away from the pc for the last couple of days.

 

I have enjoyed your last post and have no problem about kissing and making up as despite occasional appearances to the contrary we are all on the same side, resolute in the defence of angling.

 

However I will hold you to your promise to trim that tash of yours!

 

The serious rivalry will occur on the 8th of September at the next SAA meeting when we will be vying for pole position after Dave Bird sweeties!!

[Peter Sharpe]

Aaarrrgghhhh!!!