knots for braid

[The Diamond Geezer]

Vagabond:

A month or two back I suggested joining two lengths of the same sample of line via a swivel, using a palomar at one end, and a five-turn grinner at the other - then pull on the two lengths until one or t'other breaks.

And what were your comparative results, again?

[phonebush]

Vagabond, Poledark,

I am curious. Did the knot turn loose or did the line break behind the knot?

I do not believe I have ever seen a knot "turn loose" with braid tests, even a half hitch with the tag end ran under the doubled line. The diameter of the ring has a great deal to do the the bend of the line. A larger ring improves braid strength geometrically. Also tests can be flawed when the line is tested at the end of the circle in a ring. The line doubled should not break at the knot but at the weakest point in the length.

Phone

PS I do not like braid for reasons not related to breaking strength or knot strength. I like the stretch afforded by an inexpensive technically sound mono

[Vagabond]

Phone - if the knots are properly tied, the break comes at the point where the line leaves the knot - it should, for a good knot properly tied, be in excess of 90% of the line strength. Both grinners and palomars pass that test.

 

Diamond - No, mate, I'm suggesting YOU (and anyone else that wants to know) carry out your own tests, and make up your own mind. If you publish your results, all that happens, in my experience, is you get flak from the supporters of the losing knot

 

It does occur to me, that if one of the knots were less well tied than the other, then that would affect the results - and obviously people are likely to tie their favourite and most-used knot better than a strange knot.

 

For the record, I have used both knots, but have come to prefer one of them. Which one? Carry out the experiment and decide for yourself

 

[ 02. January 2003, 03:51 PM: Message edited by: Vagabond ]

[phonebush]

Vagabond,

We agree, the line should break within a smidge of the knot on the line side. I am not sure this is true of braids however. Since there is no stretch when tightening the knot I would be inclined to just say "at the weakest point beyond the knot".

Do you know for sure that this is consistantly where braid will break with regularity? Why?

Phone

[Vagabond]

Well I don't know for sure the line will ALWAYS break just behind the knot, just that it has worked that way for me so far.

 

Why ? I suppose that where the line leaves the knot usually IS the weakest point, whether its braid, monofil, or any other line. (unless the line has been abraded or otherwise weakened elsewhere, but thats another issue - I'm just considering a good knot in a sound line)

[poledark]

I concur 100% with Vagabond,they have always broken at the point in the knot where strangulation occurs,i.e. at the knot.

 

Interestingly the Noknot knot does not behave in the same way, and in my tests the braid or nylon can break anywhere.

 

I know it has been said before, but if you set up the bucket of water test you can get very accurate readings of knot strengths, and then do some comparisons.

The reason that I like to pass the line through the ring/eye/swivel acouple of times is a direct result of these type of tests, because in order to get a reading of the knot strength you have to find a way to trap the other end of the line, and simply winding it round a pencil(?) a few times stops it slipping. So it seems logical to try to reproduce this in any knot that I have to use, when I can't use the No knot knot.

 

"Slippage" lost me an ENORMOUS pike once (at Bough Beech), the fly was tied using a nylon body with a ring on the end about 1/16th of an inch thick, this slipped undone while playing the pike which was towing my boat along.

 

Den, "Trust nothing that you haven't tested yourself!"

[carpking]

Personally forget braid I can cast 140 yards quite comfortably with 20lb shock leader mono never had a crack off in 15 years on casting or with snags lets face it why do we use braid? monos today are exceptional and less prone to tangles

dont underestimate monofil

happy new year

[The Diamond Geezer]

carpking:

Personally forget braid I can cast 140 yards quite comfortably with 20lb shock leader mono never had a crack off in 15 years on casting or with snags lets face it why do we use braid? monos today are exceptional and less prone to tangles dont underestimate monofil

happy new year

CarpKing

Hummph! Well, I have nurtured fleeting thoughts like yours in the past, but have to say that, abrasion resistance aside, I'd have to go for braid everytime now. But that doesn't mean that braids will suit everyone. Here's an article I read over Christmas

members.lycos.co.uk/lureangler/tack...ck/monomusc.htm

that shows that you're not alone, CarpKing! It certainly made me have a re-think .. but not for long!

 

Happy New Year

 

Richard

[The Diamond Geezer]

poledark:

Interestingly the Noknot knot does not behave in the same way, and in my tests the braid or nylon can break anywhere.

 

I know it has been said before, but if you set up the bucket of water test you can get very accurate readings of knot strengths, and then do some comparisons.

 

The reason that I like to pass the line through the ring/eye/swivel acouple of times is a direct result of these type of tests, because in order to get a reading of the knot strength you have to find a way to trap the other end of the line, and simply winding it round a pencil(?) a few times stops it slipping. So it seems logical to try to reproduce this in any knot that I have to use, when I can't use the No knot knot.

Den, "Trust nothing that you haven't tested yourself!"

Well, personally I'd like to have access to the equipment used by Dave Barham in his tests, viz.

http://www.anglersnet.co.uk/authors/dave03.htm

 

<strong>KNOT STRENGTH

Each sample was tested five times, which meant I had to painstakingly tie three lots of each sample to quality swivels in order to get an accurate result.

 

The knot I used was a doubled, four-turn tucked blood knot, without doubt one of the strongest for joining braid and light monofilament to swivels.

 

To be fair to each brand, I scrapped the highest and lowest results for each sample and took my average from the three remaining. This was to sort out any inconsistency with my knot tying capabilities. KNOT STRENGTH TEST RESULTS</strong>

 

Richard

[poledark]

Makes you wonder what kind of machine the line makers/sellers are using, but does answer the riddle as to why I consistently get more than 100% knot strength with the noknot knot

 

Den