Two species of crucian carp

[Peter Sharpe]

I remember years ago, when Dick Walker described the two species of crucian carp, but after about half an hour's Googling, I can find absolutely no mention of the ones I remember catching. It used to fish an old ornamental lake, where there were two distinct species of crucian carp. There were obviously a few goldfish hybrids in there, but they are for the large part irrelevant. One type I used to catch rarely grew larger than two or three ounces and were always a dark, greeny bronze colour. They were closer in shape to common carp than anything else and I always considered them to be the true British variety. Then there were the other kind, deeper, with brassy flanks and which are now described as the classic crucian type. All references to this more torpedo-shaped strain seem to have completely vanished. I seem to remember seeing Neville Fickling with a bucket full of the variety I am talking about, which came from a pond in Norfolk. They were significantly different from the ones that you catch from places such as the lake at Lutterworth, near the M1.

Does anybody know where you can still catch this other variety and if so, do you have a photograph. It seemed as if they could breed almost anywhere and one of my mates at college had some spawn successfully in a tank that was barely a foot long.

Edited June 16, 2008 by Peter Sharpe

[Vagabond]

Actually, three varieties used to be recognised

 

1. var. carassius The traditional golden variety with red lower fins - named by my friend the late Dave Marlborough as the "Pretty Crucian"

 

2. var. gibeloides an unfortunate name, as it leads to confusion with the gibel (aka brown goldfish) The gibeloides is deeper bodied with a massive shoulder and much duller in colour than (1) - and is called by the Germans "speckhausen" and by Dave Marlborough the "Bream Crucian" - a variety originally bred on the continent I believe.

 

3 var. humilis Which used to be the common native form found in farm ponds everywhere - IMHO this was merely the small stunted stock from which carassius developed. They were nicely coloured, but rarely exceeded about 6 ounces.

 

Here are a couple of interesting links

 

http://www.fishingmagic.com/news/article/mps/uan/4827

 

http://www.fishingmagic.com/news/article/mps/uan/4863

Edited June 16, 2008 by Vagabond

[Peter Sharpe]

I considered stunting, but I think you would be unlikely to find stunted and normal fish in the same pond. I thought Dick described the "stunted" looking fish as Prussian carp, but having looked them up, they were quite the opposite. Confusingly, some sources claim them to be the same as bitterling, which seems absolutely untrue.

[Vagabond]

I think you would be unlikely to find stunted and normal fish in the same pond.

Well, you would if the natural population were stunted and someone had tipped in a few of the "normal" fish. That used to be a fairly likely occurence. "When I wur a lad" it was normal practice to take fish from one pond to another.

 

...but what is "normal"? One could argue that the original, natural, stunted population was the "normal" one in most farm ponds. and the introduced larger fish (probably decendants of domesticated stocks imported from the continent) were the outsiders. Remember that fish farming is not new - look at

http://www.bahs.org.uk/39n2a1.pdf

that is about carp, but other species were farmed as well.

 

 

Almost all of the farm ponds around here in the 1940s held the humilis variety. Only two ponds (three miles apart) held the larger carassius crucians - up to over 2 lb. I remember the little crucians as greeny gold with crimson fins. The bigger fish were brassier and darker but still with the crimson fins. I never came across the gibeloides strain until I caught some in a Hertfordshire pond in the 60s.

 

Confusion? I'll say! The term Prussian carp is used indiscrimanently by many (including Peter Maitland in his book Freshwater Fishes) to describe both brown goldfish and crucians. The same applies to the term "gibel". As for the phrase "golden carp".......

 

Add to that the proliferation of crucian x goldfish, goldfish x common, and common x crucian hybrids that have been foisted on clubs and commercials under the guise of "crucians" and there is a right old mess out there.

Edited June 17, 2008 by Vagabond

[Peter Sharpe]

I never came across the gibeloides strain until I caught some in a Hertfordshire pond in the 60s.

It was a Hertfordshire pond where I caught them, in the grounds of Balls Park College in Hertford. Only a tiny number of students ever fished there and I honestly don't thing it was ever stocked in living memory. It was set in the grounds of a Jacobean mansion, so the pond (or "lake" as it was referred to), could have been there for a very long time.

[bluerinse]

"I always considered them to be the true British variety"

 

Reading my 1930 "fine Angling for Coarse fish" by Alban F L Bacon, The Lonsdale Library

He says all carp varieties are not indigenous to this country but were introduced to the UK during the fourteenth and fifteenth century with the first known reference to crucain being 1496.

I wonder if the different variations are the same species but differing under local conditions, i.e. food available, water temperature, body of water etc…

It could be that there were differences when they were introduced from France or Belgium or which ever country then depending on how many fish were added to ponds and if they add fish from different location in the same pond that they then cross bread and different fish took on different aspects.

God it gets complicated

It could be the case that there are many different variations around the UK (and I am sure in Europe)

If you look at King Carp, many are different in shape colour appearance, even from the same water, we seem to manage to band them all together as a species but get very worried when we talk about crucain.

Edited June 18, 2008 by bluerinse