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BARBED HOOKS!!!!!!!!


Babar

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hi all,

i don't have the experience to say which is or is not the best type of hook,but i would like to add that having read all your replys to babar that the ANTI brigade would find the quotes about perch deaths and lips ripped off quite harrowing reading, no offence intended.

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Hi All,

Been reading this thread with interest.The debate about barbed/barbless hooks has gone on for years and no doubt will continue too.My personnal opinion of this matter is that it DOESNT make any difference what type of hook you use,barbed,barbless,micro barb etc it WILL cause damage to the mouth of the fish,there is no getting away from that fact.If people are so concerned then they should not be fishing. :cool:

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More statements with no possible proof to back them up; Gaffer, you say that barbless can come out and go back in again "at a different angle", have you ever seen this happen? Even if you were blessed with underwater vision then why should it be a problem?,and if you are using a modern carp rig with several ounces of lead attached then it would be very very difficult for the hook to come out.

 

Your illustration of how a hook can tear is pretty convincing but is probably caused by the use of short shanked hooks, and have you thought through the sawing effect of the incurved point?

The Aberdeen type hook, which is the classic hook shape, is approx 2.5 to 1 shank to gape ratio, this was found to be the best hooking type by none other than Mustad,s many years ago, the long shank causing the pull on the point to be at the best angle for successful penetration.

This was also borne out in practise by longliners.

The bulk of damage to carp and tench's mouths is caused by the use of heavy tackle and heavy leads and feeders, the banging about of a 3 or 4ounce weight a few inches from the fish's mouth must contribute a great deal to the damage.

 

Back to the perch problem, if deep hooking is the problem then how do you deal with it? Perch are predators and will engulf their food and are notorious for getting themselves deep hooked, so if you think there is any chance of them getting killed then either do not fish for them or use a type of hook that CANNOT under any circumstance, penetrate deep enough to kill them, shouldn't be difficult to do, cut off the point and barb, resharpen the hook and you have a hook that cannot penetrate deep and will almost fall out when the fish is landed.

 

I am not having a go at you Gaffer but just how much should one crush the barb in order to ensure that the hook does not move about? Just how micro should the microbarb be?

 

I have fished quite a few different Carp puddles and seen the mouth damage and that is why so many owners of these waters stipulate barbless, unfortunately many anglers ignore the rules, not once have I ever had my hooks checked!

 

As you say Gaffer, most of the arguments can never be proved one way or the other but the trend is there already, more and more waters are going barbless and almost all pike anglers fish barbless except the lure men, their argument, and it has a great deal of validity, is that deep hooking does not happen.

 

One final (for the moment anyway :D ) I used to fish a famous big carp water and the guys who fished it were proud of the condition of the fish's mouths. This was despite most of the fish having been caught many many times over the years. Indeed one member was kicked out for dragging fish from the lily pads, (taboo to most members)

Rarely did anyone use more than two ounces of lead but with the gradual changeover of members and the trend to heavier bolt rigs mouth damage became quite noticeable, and no one was using barbless.

 

Den

"When through the woods and forest glades I wanderAnd hear the birds sing sweetly in the trees;When I look down from lofty mountain grandeur,And hear the brook, and feel the breeze;and see the waves crash on the shore,Then sings my soul..................

for all you Spodders. https://youtu.be/XYxsY-FbSic

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Hi Poledark,

 

poledark:

More statements with no possible proof to back them up; Gaffer, you say that barbless can come out and go back in again "at a different angle", have you ever seen this happen? Even if you were blessed with underwater vision then why should it be a problem?,and if you are using a modern carp rig with several ounces of lead attached then it would be very very difficult for the hook to come out.

:D I know I'm no rocket scientist if that's what you mean.....

 

But I have seen (on an unhooking mat) on a number of occasions wounds to fish that were caught using barbless hooks. The hookholds were surrounded by torn tissue and there appeared to be even more damage internally, which I have never seen with a barbed hook.

I have even witnessed an incident with a surface fished mixer and controller set up with a barbless hook where there was an horrendous 'exit' wound. :(

 

poledark:

Your illustration of how a hook can tear is pretty convincing but is probably caused by the use of short shanked hooks, and have you thought through the sawing effect of the incurved point?

The Aberdeen type hook, which is the classic hook shape, is approx 2.5 to 1 shank to gape ratio, this was found to be the best hooking type by none other than Mustad,s many years ago, the long shank causing the pull on the point to be at the best angle for successful penetration.

This was also borne out in practise by longliners.

The bulk of damage to carp and tench's mouths is caused by the use of heavy tackle and heavy leads and feeders, the banging about of a 3 or 4ounce weight a few inches from the fish's mouth must contribute a great deal to the damage.

Again, I'm no rocket scientist, but see above re: 'exit' wound.

 

poledark:

I am not having a go at you Gaffer but just how much should one crush the barb in order to ensure that the hook does not move about? Just how micro should the microbarb be?

Dunno mate, but fishing is one big risk assessment. Weighing up the possible risk of injury to fish as opposed to the way in which it's caught.

It's our duty to do our damndest to make sure that the risks are minimalised. For me, based on what I've seen, granted not proven, but then as I keep saying I'm no rocket scientist, I will continue to use either a micro-barbed hook or and crushed barb. My conscience is clear and I don't feel that I need to keep justifing the use of barbed hooks, so this will be my last contribution to this thread. I'm not teddy throwing, honest. :)

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Gaffer. Im sorry(its just my point of view) but I think you have a very prehistoric view of hooks and how they affect the fish!

I for one have used barbless hooks for well over 10 years now and I must say that I have never encountered such mishaps. I have always had an extremely good hookhold. Even with the straight point patterns. I have also had the hook come cleanly from of the fish with no visible damage or bleeding.

Also how do you see into the fishes wounds?

I would like to posess this supernatural talent!!

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Let me contribute a smidge of opinion here. In the US we have lots of fish and do not seem to have the aversion to harvest for testing there is in the UK. I believe it was the US at Eagle Claw Hook Co., Denver Colorado that did testing on barbless vs. barbed hooks recently.

The tests were made with the antis in mind. There is a movement in PETA for government to require a 15 second rule for “playing” fish on Federal water. (They want fish to be landed and returned in 15 seconds from the time it is hooked. – A different thread)

It, these tests clearly determined, by visual examination of thousands of fish , barb vs. barbless was not a/the major issue with fish damage. More often angler skill landing the fish was the major (the most) contributor to lip damage. There was a strong correlation between horsing fish in using a powerful retrieve and fish damage regardless of hook style. Retrieve made the most difference. Worst result was with a solid rod of steel using an electric winch, least was a flyrod, skilled angler, and a BARBED hook matched to the size of fish to be caught on light tippets. Wire diameter was also a greater factor in damage than barb size and style.

The fish were trout but I can’t see too much difference between species.

Phone

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I believe that Phonebush's last post really sums up the problem. It is not so much the hook but the technique. Rods are bought and sold on their casting ability rather more than on their fish handling abilities. Newt ofton refers to his 'soft' rods such as his Shakespeare Ugly-Stiks, I think he is more right than wrong on that issue.

 

Big fish are hossed out before they are played out, which, by the way, I think leads to other problems. The cranking power of modern beachcasters and three pound test rods is pretty awesome! All this power is applied to the fish via a thin piece of wire. It doesn't need a rocket scientist to work out the effects.

 

I can see absolutely no logic whatsoever in the statement that a barbed hook moves around less than a barbless one. How can that be?

 

The statement that a barbed hook penetrates less deeply than a barbless hook also baffles me. The point of the hook goes in, and then is pulled out. That is the function of a hook! The barb, making the hook wider at that point, could mean that barbless penetrate less easily, but less deeply? Take two equelly sized hooks, one barbless and one barbed. Pull them into a piece of cloth. They both go in one side and out the other, plain and simple.

 

I can, however, see a theoretical problem with multi hook rigs though, e.g. plugs used in piking. Initially the rear hook might penetrate and the play is on that one treble. During the gyrations of the fish another treble might penetrate and the strain is transfered to that hook. That leaves the previous hook with less strain to hold it in, so it is shaken out by the fish. I'm sure that happens but is it any worse to have a flying hook or a fish hooked on two sets of trebles?

 

On a personal basis I prefer to squeeze the barbs on my trebles, rather than barbless. I also reduce the quantity of trebles on many of my lures.

 

Reading back through Den' statements, I can only agree.

 

[ 23. February 2003, 09:08 AM: Message edited by: Peter Waller ]

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Dear Peter,

 

I remember at a SACG meeting a long time ago, when Barrie Rickards produced results of scientific research done into barbed-barbless hooks. Sorry to say, I cant remember who undertook this research but I remember that its findings cast doubt on the barbless variety.

 

Regards,

 

Lee.

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Oh, ok, one more post won't hurt!

 

monkeyboy:

Gaffer. Im sorry(its just my point of view) but I think you have a very prehistoric view of hooks and how they affect the fish!

LMAO!! :D

 

monkeyboy:

I for one have used barbless hooks for well over 10 years now and I must say that I have never encountered such mishaps.

So in the 10 years of you fishing you have never seen any damage from any hooks of any sorts?

 

I think you're living in a dream world mate! (just my point of view) ) IMO there are too many factors to be able to give a diffinitive answer as to whether barbless hooks are any better overall than barbed hooks (or V.V.) in terms of damage to fish.

 

I am happy to use micro-barbed or crushed barbed hooks for all of my carp fishing as I have seen very little damage caused by these types of hooks on large specimen fish.

 

[ 23. February 2003, 09:56 AM: Message edited by: Gaffer ]

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