BARBED HOOKS!!!!!!!!

[Peter Sharpe]

I'm finding it quite difficult to believe I'm reading some of the statements made on here. Does anyone except Gaffer really believe that a barb on a hook "stabilises" it so that it won't move during the fight. I'm sorry, but I have to say what utter claptrap.

 

When we are talking about very small hooks, say of size 14 and smaller, on normal float tackle, I doubt if there are significant differences in penetration because the hook can penetrate quite easily to the bend and then stay there. The difference is the damage caused during the unhooking.

 

When we start to use larger hooks, combined with a lead of two ounces or more, the lead is continually bouncing on the line during the fight, acting as a hammer. I certainly noticed tearing when I used to use barbed hooks.

 

I first stopped using barbed hooks when I found that I was starting to double hook chub and carp, i.e. where the hook penetrated, then worked its way through, then twisted round and re-entered. A barbed size eight, this time with just two swan shot, had re-penetrated to such an extent that only the eye of the hook was visible, and it was a terrible job trying to remove it. When this happened with carp twice in succession I vowed never to use a barbed hook again. I prefer to flatten the barbs though, as a my favourite hook isn't available in a barbless version.

 

I'm not claiming that this is anything other than pure coincidence, but I have very rarely double hooked a carp since. When I did, the hook hold was very secure, and with no tearing. To be honest, the double hooking when using the hook with the flattened barb showed no tearing whatsoever, and came out extremely easy. It almost made me think that this type of hook hold with a barbless hook was possibly preferable on big carp. There was certainly no sign of damage.

As I said, I very rarely double hook these days, but if I do, it doesn't bother me in the slightest (or the carp).

 

I also find the perch and barbless theory very hard to swallow (no pun intended). Firstly, I believe that for the barb to restrict penetration to the degree that is being suggested, it would have to be a barb standing proud at such an angle that not only would it impede successful hooking in the first place, it would cause enormous damage on removal. One only has to look at those horrible photos that Coarse Fisherman used to publish to accompany articles on fishing with jerk baits. (Thankfully, I have long forgotten the name of the perpetrator). Those barbed trebles were going clean through the bone of the pike's cheek, with the barb clearly visible on the outside.

 

If any hook is capable of killing a perch in the way that is suggested, the pure and simple answer is that the hook is too big.

 

[ 07. March 2003, 08:06 PM: Message edited by: Peter Sharpe ]

[Steve Burke]

Peter, I for one on this Forum agree with Gaffer. There are also other experienced anglers and fishery managers who do so who aren't Forum members. Years ago I'd have sided with your viewpoint, but now I've been converted! And many others are changing their ideas too and believe that there's a place for both barbless and micro-barbed hooks in different circumstances.

 

I don't know why barbless hooks cause problems, all I know is that they do. I've only suggested possible reasons. However, as I wrote a couple of days ago "....Whether barbless hooks penetrate more deeply or move around more I therefore feel is irrelevant. What is important is the results, and these show a tremendous difference in favour of barbed hooks."

 

I'm not going to be drawn into an emotive exchange of views here. I think we'll just have to agree to differ. At least all of us can say we have the fish's welfare at heart.

 

As far as the size of hooks for perch fishing I'd agree with you that large hooks in the wrong patterns should be avoided. For me these include all barbless patterns, which I why ban barbless hooks above size 10 on the Coarse Lake at Wingham.

 

However, since switching to the pattern I now use (Ashima Super Maggot, Super Match and Super Bloodworm, which differ only in colour and have absolutely minute barbs) I've not knowingly had a perch death - and I do an awful lot of perch fishing!

[Steve Burke]

Rob, I use a variety of patterns for lure fishing, all with finer wire than usually supplied. Some lures have got hooks that are so strong you could almost use them as anchors!

 

When my current supplies are used up I'm going to try Partridge Grey Shadow trebles again. These have small barbs and short points, although I think the points are perhaps a little too short.

[Bradford Angler]

I understand the point that Steve is making . however . . I believe that hearts are ruling this issue with feelings taken from personal experience . . if we generalise the subject (which is the style of the thread start) then we must take into consideration barbed and barbless across the piece.

 

statistics regarding fatalities in fish have been aired . . however, taking aside the skill, knowledge and conservation qualities of posters on here and apply the pro's and con's of the barbed/barbless patterns across a heavily fished club or day ticket water, where the general run of the mill "fisherman" does not display the same attention to handling and unhooking . . then I think generally the barbless brigade has to have it on this topic.

 

In my club of some 4,000 members, many waters are controlled both still and running, there is now a tendancy for the majority of the anglers to frequent still waters rather than the rivers, this percentage increases each year . . imagine the potential risk of stress and damage 4,000 members could have all taking turns at 40 pegs on a lake . . then ask .. barbed or barbless . .

 

sorry chaps - - I gotta go with the first post on this thread.

 

There again I only fish barbless. From size 24's on T'canal to 2's at Cowthorpe for the Barbel

 

Also imagine the effects an inexperienced angler can cause to a perch if a deep hooked, worm baited hook was barbed . . we are still struggling trying to get anglers to buy disgorgers and use unhooking mats . .

 

What is the size of the kill zone of a perch say 1lb, how large an area does the hook have to hit to cause these problems (size of a match head . . size of a ten pence piece) - can anyone advise ??

[Peter Sharpe]

Good point. Is what Steve is suggesting the use of the proverbial sledgehammer to crack a nut? I too have caught countless perch over the years, and never once have I experienced this problem that Steve describes. However, I have experienced horrible moments trying to remove barbed hooks from perch - when I was much younger, I hasten to add. I have a feeling that a bad experience leading to a guilty conscience might possibly have resulted in a bit of an over reaction. This is a genuine mystery to me. I had never heard of this phenomenon before reading it here. It must be extremely rare, although perch deaths through the removal of barbed hooks isn't - unfortunately.

[poledark]

Spot on.

 

Den

[Gaffer]

Bradford Angler:

. . however, taking aside the skill, knowledge and conservation qualities of posters on here and apply the pro's and con's of the barbed/barbless patterns across a heavily fished club or day ticket water, where the general run of the mill "fisherman" does not display the same attention to handling and unhooking . . then I think generally the barbless brigade has to have it on this topic.

 

In my club of some 4,000 members, many waters are controlled both still and running, there is now a tendancy for the majority of the anglers to frequent still waters rather than the rivers, this percentage increases each year . . imagine the potential risk of stress and damage 4,000 members could have all taking turns at 40 pegs on a lake . . then ask .. barbed or barbless . .

Speaking as someone who fishes syndicate/club/commercial carp fisheries I would have to disagree. I've have seen 'run of the mill' anglers, who I'd like to think were inexperienced, apply unnecessary pressure on carp (of all sizes) because they were afraid that any less pressure would result in the barbless hook falling out.

 

And before you ask Den, not only have I seen it, but I've actually asked/commented on the amount of pressure being applied during the 'playing' of these carp by some anglers, only to be told of their barbless ejection worries.

 

Some barbed hook patterns are a little extreme, I agree, but micro barb or crushed barb are definately safer for the carp than barbless, in my experiance.

[Peter Sharpe]

Ah, a compromise. World leaders please take note, and there may not be a war after all.

[poledark]

What is this "to much pressure"? I have also had a HUGE amount of experience of catching and witnessing lots of massive carp (30+) many DF barbel, tench over 7lbs or more.

Every single one of my big fish has been landed as quickly as possible, this with tackle ranging from RW Mk1V to 3lb TC, in fact I was known for landing my fish vere quickly.

 

You will note that I have not got involved with the damage argument, but I have questioned statements that say barbed kill more than barbless. I have never killed a carp, tench or Barbel, but then I have never (to the best of my knowledge) deep hooked any of these fish.

Perch, yes I have killed small ones due to deep hooking when using barbed hooks and I have on several occasions stopped roach fishing because I was hooking lots of small perch. But these fatalities may have been lessened had I been able to remove the hook easier, Steve would have me believe that more would have died if I had been using barbless.

 

Deeply hooked fish will suffer damage when unhooking,lip hooked fish will suffer damage while unhooking, but that damage will be minimised by the use of barbless.

 

Once again I will say it.... if you have to use forceps to remove the hook then you should seiously consider changing to barbless, unless the fish has teeth.

 

On many occasions over the years I have hooked Carp, tench and barbel in a tough part of the lip and really struggled to remove the hook, no amount of pushing back to ease the barb out seemed to work and eventually the forceps are fetched, one little twist and out comes the hook.

Have any of you ever wondered why the forceps make it feel easier to tear the hook out?

Now if I had been using barbless then no forceps would have been needed.

 

I'll tell you something else as well, many of the Kennet barbel anglers, men with 40 years of catching big barbel, are all fishing barbless, and they are doing this for the sake of the fish.

 

Den

[Gaffer]

poledark:

What is this "to much pressure"? I have also had a HUGE amount of experience of catching and witnessing lots of massive carp (30+) many DF barbel, tench over 7lbs or more.

Every single one of my big fish has been landed as quickly as possible, this with tackle ranging from RW Mk1V to 3lb TC, in fact I was known for landing my fish vere quickly.

Den, you've got years more experience behind you than me, I understand that, but I can't believe for a minute that you don't know what I mean. Surely a fish is 'played', 'coaxed' or even 'persuaded' to the net, not 'hauled', 'winched' or 'wrenched' from the water. The later is what I have witnessed in the name of barbless hooks. I can't change what I've seen, perhaps I'm the only person to have ever witnessed this phenomenon!

 

poledark:

Once again I will say it.... if you have to use forceps to remove the hook then you should seiously consider changing to barbless, unless the fish has teeth.

 

On many occasions over the years I have hooked Carp, tench and barbel in a tough part of the lip and really struggled to remove the hook, no amount of pushing back to ease the barb out seemed to work and eventually the forceps are fetched, one little twist and out comes the hook.

Have any of you ever wondered why the forceps make it feel easier to tear the hook out?

Now if I had been using barbless then no forceps would have been needed.

Very rarely do I ever have to use forceps, usually I just remove the hook with my fingers, but then I use micro-barbed hooks most of the time, even when fishing on barbless only waters.

 

[ 08. March 2003, 07:23 PM: Message edited by: Gaffer ]