PAC (only those interested please)

[Guest G. Reaper]

In all of this issue, because it might be Frank, Mac or myself posting, the points put forward by those who disagree always follow along the lines that it is a small group of individuals who are rocking boats for their own reasons. Ain't so! If it had been left to us few individuals, not much would have been heard - we would have walked off into obscurity, whistling a happy song and letting others get on with things. But it's not happened that way.

 

Another problem is that those who reply, taking issue, do not address the points made - they shoot the messenger and ignore the message. The fact that Frank's message is coming from 300 Scots pike anglers who ask Frank to speak on their behalf is entirely lost. Why do they ask Frank to do it this time - because they trust him to present their views.

 

At the beginning of all this, did anyone know that Frank and Mac did their utmost in trying to persuade the Scottish regions to stay in PAC - stating their resignations were personal and shouldn't affect the club as a whole? Well, they did - but events overtook this and it is now the rank and file Scottish PAC members who are the driving force in their regions pulling from the club and further increasing numbers of resignations. If that were not enough, this momentum is gathering steam in other areas too. It is a bulk of the PAC membership who are telling US that they see things from our perspective not us trying to badger them to do it!

 

So, if you must, blame Frank, Mac or me - we are the easy targets because we put our heads above the parapet to say "Whoa! There's a lot happening here!" If you choose to think that - do so but YOU are missing the big picture - whether deliberately or by choosing not to acknowledge that there is something much bigger going on.

 

It's very easy to say things were dying down and had got much nicer, so why all this again now? Surely, that proves my point - for a while nobody heard a peep from us on this. Unlike Neville's tactics of snipe at every opportunity, we have not aggravated the situation when inter club dialogue was going on - after all we're out of it. But when, due to the bunker mentality of this committee (not us Nev) the club starts to fall apart - big time - and those wanting a voice ask for ours - we feel that we must act. A bit of proof is a wide email circle that argued issues 'inside' rather than continually going public. Some of those that think this is an affair of a few individuals would be in for a very rude awakening indeed.

 

A point being sadly missed in the first few responses to Frank's post that I read was that Mac sits on the highest angling council in Scotland - Chairman of a Governing Body with all that entails for pike angling. This was lost to PAC a few days after Neville's readmission and that was a price PAC were happy to pay. Nobody has ever said that NJF should NEVER have been allowed back into PAC but it was said by the membership that his readmission should be done in a certain way. That way of doing things was accepted by the committee - they, themselves, asked for a mandate from the members on how to proceed. The rest is history.

 

Other areas such as fears over livebaiting, representation in general - these ARE things that Frank and I have been banging on about for ages now - I admit it. Perhaps it's who you talk too - SAA feel they reflect the core feeling on these subjects - Frank and I know many with similar reservations to us - it's still open to debate, especially when many of those who we will have to rely on have expressed unnerving opinions in the past.

 

This does have a bearing on the PAC turmoil at present. The same people now in the throes of leaving the club ARE voicing their misgivings that the PAC has sacrificed its inner unity for something so uncertain. It is being put forward by the PAC committee that the future is to trust some who we could not trust in the past to maintain foundations of our sport and that NJF had to be readmitted, flying in the face of the membership mandate, to achieve this. All of this is relevant to many, many pike anglers - it is not just Gibbons, MacPherson and Farrell lashing out, every so often, in some sort of sour grapes tantrum.

 

If you wish, you can reply to this and miss every point in it - don't matter to me - I'm used to it.

 

Ray Farrell

[Guest Ian Cresswell]

Originally posted by G. Reaper:

Ian,

 

There's a good reason for the Guiness Book of Records posting and that is this. At present, Frank has not got access to the net

 

Fair enough ... was the first message on this thread composed after the second then?

 

How does this work exactly?

 

Ian.

 

[This message has been edited by Ian Cresswell (edited 02 March 2001).]

[Guest Leon Roskilly]

Originally posted by G. Reaper:

If you wish, you can reply to this and miss every point in it - don't matter to me - I'm used to it.

Ray Farrell

 

Ray,

 

I still don't know exactly what it is you all want out of all this, and how it is to be achieved

 

Tight Lines - leon

[Guest waterman1013]

Ray

 

Most of us ignore the message simply because, for all the anger, there is none. When you, Frank, John or any of the others involved can tell us what you want, how you want to achieve it and what benefits it will bring, then the rest of us will be able to respond to the message.

 

You all consistently fail to communicate with your audience. We have not all been party to the private discussions by e-mail. We do not all live in Scotland, so can have no understanding of feelings there. We are, for the most part, PAC members supporting our committee and constitution. If ex-members of PAC, wherever they live, have a problem with the constitution then that is their problem. It has served pike anglers and pike well for twenty four years. Yet it is only now, with the demise of the Scottish committee, that it becomes a noose around the neck of PAC. Remember my article about truth and perspective? I suggest you all read it again, put your emotion to one side and begin to understand what is being said to you.

 

If Scottish pikers choose to form a new Scottish pike group, that must be their choice. If there are 300 members of it then I am sure that the Scottish Assembly will listen carefully to every word they have to say. Although in my experience if one speaks for 2000 or 3000 members one gets heard louder and clearer than with only 300 by most politicians.

 

Can any of you answer Leon’s questions? If you cannot, then why keep raising the subject. It is simply another rant; without a solution postulated by yourselves. Don’t expect us to find a solution, we are all happy with the PAC committee, the job they are doing and the way they continue to defend pike and piking.

 

“The fact that Frank's message is coming from 300 Scots pike anglers who ask Frank to speak on their behalf is entirely lost. Why do they ask Frank to do it this time - because they trust him to present their views.” Trust him they might, but then he needs to use language that we thick English can understand. He needs to make his points clearly and concisely. He, and they, need to know what they are proposing. Then we might find out as well.

 

No we did not know Frank and Mac had tried to get the Scottish regions to stay in PAC. But then we did not know the Scottish regions had left or were threatening to leave PAC either. If that is the case it is a sad day for Scottish pike and pikers, because the Assembly is a bigger threat to angling than many presently realise.

 

If we are missing the big picture then it is because Frank has failed to convey that to us. We, are only anglers, not mind-readers, if you want us to know something you have to tell us. Simple communications work wonders.

 

When you make observations about the stance of SACG, not yet SAA, on the subject of livebaiting you need to be much more specific. Don’t throw muddy water. If you have something to say to someone, address them by name and then we can all make a judgement of your views, on the subject. SACG have supported PAC and the other interested groups on livebaiting from the start. You expressed concerns, repeatedly, about that commitment. It has never been an issue for SACG.

 

SACG SUPPORTS AND WILL DEFEND THE RIGHT TO LIVEBAIT. Did you hear that, because everyone else did and there can be no doubt any longer about SACG and its position on livebaiting.

 

“It is being put forward by the PAC committee that the future is to trust some who we could not trust in the past”. Again, if you have doubts about individuals, who represent angling, then express them and name them, either here or in private to them, but don’t sit there blackening the names of good servants to angling by omission. Who are these people you fear? What did they say? Give them a chance to defend themselves from these constant scurrilous attacks. Or is this another case of personality clashes, which those of us fighting to defend angling, are finding increasingly tiresome.

 

“If you wish, you can reply to this and miss every point in it - don't matter to me - I'm used to it.” Ray, I am really sorry to harp on about this, but people will continue to miss the point when they fail to grasp it. It was one of the reasons that SACG felt unable to put you or Frank in the firing line with EA, when we were negotiating the future of livebaiting and other matters affecting predator fishermen. Confusion in delivering the message leads to a confused response. I am sure that the vast majority reading these posts have little concept of what you mean, what the problem really is or how you propose to solve it. Without those three basic bits of information, most of us can only respond from that which we have available.

 

Answer Leon and we may all be able to move forward.

 

Mike

[Guest malc31]

Watch this space.. I have just formed the following new pike clubs . The Scottish Pike Anglers CLub , The Scottish Pike Socity ,The Scottish Piker,s The Scottish Pike fishing club ,Plus Ray Farrel and some Norfolk losers .All will be revealed on March the 5th the day after the P.A.C.Manchester meeting .,The twelve anglers who attended Frank Gibons recent meeting are also invited to join one our all my Scottish Pike Clubs .

[Guest Paul Williams]

As someone looking in and trying to follow this thread:-

Ray, Mike is right you know, you write so much and say so little!!

you chose a public forum so as both Mike and Leon say what do you want????

[Guest Nev Fickling]

A few months ago I'd have not responded to RF, but with foot and mouth we are all going to have a bit of time on our hands. He has a funny idea of what the PAC membership is. If he thinks an ROs working dinner is representative, then obviously a certain Mr. S. Hussain's cabinet must also be representative. ROs are generally self elected, often self opinionated. Some have a mandate from their regions, some do not. I have carried out further investigations as to how this meeting proceeded. It appears that a 6 month ban for yours truely was proposed, but then the eloquent Dave Batten swung things around so it was 3 years. Not being there myself ( no longer a member ) I was in no position to defend myself. Picture the scene in Glasgow Crown Court. Frank Clint Gibbons, you are accused of sheep worrying. Because we have left you in the cell, we'll have to take your plea as guilty.

Any further words before I pass sentence? No, jolly good take him down. The phrase travesty comes to mind. So Ray if that's your concept of getting the membership invol ved, I'd like to see your version of a dictatorship!

[Guest EA Piker]

Exactly where does Frank Gibbons get the idea that East Anglia is appalled and being risked because of the new committee's stance? I have no doubt that he has some supporters, they keep holding little meetings, but this is not evidence that you know the minds of the majority. By all means speak for yourself but don't try to exaggerate the significance of your opinions by claiming to speak for others.

 

To echo the thoughts of others, lets have some straight answers to the points that Leon has raised. What exactly do you want to achieve?

 

The old PAC web site now seems to be offering a not very subtle hint; if this is the case get on with it and stop the bickering.

[Guest Peter Waller]

Originally posted by malc31:

Watch this space.. I have just formed the following new pike clubs . The Scottish Pike Anglers CLub , The Scottish Pike Socity ,The Scottish Piker,s The Scottish Pike fishing club ,Plus Ray Farrel and some Norfolk losers.

Just a matter of curiosity, some Norfolk losers, any clues on this one? Speaking to some quite high profile anglers in this area, where a degree of anti-Nev feelings keep rumbling away, I come away with a general tiredness of the whole blessed matter and a general satisfaction that the present committee are perfectly capable of leading the club forward if only people would accept that the past is just that, the past, and start working for the future. I think it is worth pointing out that there are those who speak for an area, any area for that matter, but don't nescessarily speak for the members of which ever area they profess to represent.

[Guest Billy Noon]

Originally posted by Nev Fickling:

It amazes me how many words Frank Gibbons can use to say just three things.

1) Let's have a go at SACG/SAA

2) Let's have a go at NJF again.

3) Let's declare UDI for Scottish pike anglers.

 

The position of the specialist angler is far better than it ever was when I was involved, so do not start knocking things as they are now. If you do not like things as they are , you could get involved rather than adopting the bunker mentality you seem to have aquired recently.

 

I'm sure you could come along to the PAC EGM and make your case. This time however the person you tried to take to the cleaners will be there to defend himself. Something I did not have the opportunity to do before.

 

Oh by the way do you want a five minute argument or the full half hour...........

Oh!...so anyone who disagrees with you or PAC is Scottish then? As I suspected...you 'ARE' a racist!