Australian Carp Article

[Ken L]

But we do not have the plague preportion problems that they have

 

Yes we do !

We don't have self sustaining populations with the sort of densities that occur in warmer climes but we have no shortage of people stocking our otherwise natural waters with a plague of water pigs ready to utterly destroy the waters natural ecosystem.

 

Carp arn't a problem in small numbers but I really do loathe them where they're present in numbers.

[JV44]

ARE there any predators that "keep carp fry in check" ?

 

The main problem in Oz is that carp muddy the waters, and the Aussie native predators need clear water to breed.

 

Don't be too complacent about it, every time I visit Texas to fish, there seems to be an increasing number of carp in the local lake.

 

The only sure thing that does keep carp fry in check is a cold winter - which is why carp have not been a problem in natural waters the UK - until the last 30 years, since when "carp lovers" have been stocking every water they can reach (Section 30? "Wots that then?")

 

Southern USA, like Australia, cannot expect a cold winter anytime soon

Vagabond been a decade since we were last out there but whilst fishing the Murray somewhere downstream of Echuca came across a sun weathered faced old fisho who thought that the colouration of the river system was as much to do with irrigation demands as the Carp?? not saying this is true his take mind ....massive amounts run off to the winerys farm etc then not i think was his point .

Must admit the carp i caught went back and with hindsight maybe that wasn`t the best thing ,with the numbers in there at the time it made as much sense as stamping on crays out of the Kennet thinking it`s gonna make a differance .

The other thing that maybe coulours the water is the increased number of Speed /wake boats hooning along it`s length towing some lunatic Ausie at speed ,I did manahe a Perch a yellow one from memory on a yardy grub i think and missed a craking take from the back of the houseboat whilst reaching for another beer ,convinced myself it was one of the fabled Cod but who knows .

The Houseboat next to us caught a Cod and spent half the morning on the radio bragging about it Steve

[Dales]

Yes we do !

We don't have self sustaining populations with the sort of densities that occur in warmer climes but we have no shortage of people stocking our otherwise natural waters with a plague of water pigs ready to utterly destroy the waters natural ecosystem.

 

Carp arn't a problem in small numbers but I really do loathe them where they're present in numbers.

 

But they require the stocking to be there in such numbers, in places that have a "real problem" they breed and spread at a alarming rate on there own.

[Vagabond]

.... old fisho who thought that the colouration of the river system was as much to do with irrigation demands as the Carp

 

Well yes, I said that carp muddied the water, not that they were the ONLY thing that muddied the water.

 

However, irrigation muddies the water during the growing season, floods muddy the water during the rainy season (which may vary a bit from year to year, but doesn't last long). The native fish used to breed during those parts of the year when the water was not muddy.

 

Carp, on the other hand, muddy the waters all the year round, so there is no "clear-water" season within which the Australian native species could breed.

[JV44]

Well yes, I said that carp muddied the water, not that they were the ONLY thing that muddied the water.

 

However, irrigation muddies the water during the growing season, floods muddy the water during the rainy season (which may vary a bit from year to year, but doesn't last long). The native fish used to breed during those parts of the year when the water was not muddy.

 

Carp, on the other hand, muddy the waters all the year round, so there is no "clear-water" season within which the Australian native species could breed.

Vagabond ok i get it now they need the clear water condition for spawning /fry survival,no wonder they don`t like us [the Ausies] we give them Rabbits/Foxes/Carp and don`t even mention Blackberrys to them and after giving them Cricket we are at long last teaching them and the world how to play it again Steve.

[davedave]

No hanging Dave, and really no "anti carp squad", though it suits some to think that there is.

 

I said on another thread that although the carp have been here hundreds of years, it's only in the last 20 to 30 yrs that there has been a problem.

 

Like you, I enjoy catching a variety of species, but the artificial stocking of carp over the last few years, has/is causing an artificial change in the balance of species. I would still be moaning if this stocking policy involved species other than carp.

If you have a water that can naturally support a fixed weight of fish, with food to suit different species at various stages in their development. You then add a very hardy species that will eat just about anything, from minute invertebrates, to small fish, and have a habit of 'grubbing' about in weed and the bed of the water, thus altering the 'structure' of the water. You have a situation in which the resident fish are going to suffer.

Which species would you like to see decline because of this?

 

It has happened in the past when barbel have been introduced into new waters, also when bream are stocked in numbers, its just that carp happen to be the 'money makers', easy to breed, and therefore popular, so they are the ones causing the problems.

 

John.

 

I agree with what you are saying gozzer, but currently in the UK native species seem to live happily alongside the carp-- tench, bream, roach, perch etc records are still being broken. The fish can't be being pushed off the food that badly because they are still increasing generally in size. And other than muddying the waters (no pun intended) are they really doing that much damage. With crayfish they are eating away at the banks and causing all sorts of problems, carp don't seem half as bad as that.

 

I don't disagree with what you are saying gozzer i just don't see the problem with them so much

[Phone]

vagabond,

 

We seniors have to stick together or at lean on one another just to remain upright from time to time.

 

I've never been to Australia, I've said that before. So you have me at a disadvantage. The reason I need an advantage is that I believe the "muddy water" story is (what's the English word - ******) BS. First, my research began in the early 70's and ended in the early 90's. I haven't been active in limnology issues for some time so I am "dated" if not tainted. The only possible issue I ever found in the literature is nest suffocation. Not likely carp. As you indicate, carp do not eat the vegetation, they are searching for bottom dwelling creatures. They rarely stay with one location to suffocate a nest.

 

At the time, and perhaps today, Australia was a hotbed of "carp muddy the water". Not true. While a number of studies were conducted with that bias in mind none proved or even came close to proving carp put spawning natives "at risk" - even slightly. Perhaps there are newer studies I haven't read?

 

Carp are bad boys, no question and Aussies don't like carp - that became clear. Carp had become, even in the 70's far to prolific. But I think it is wrong to accuse carp of something that instinctively simply doesn't happen. You mention the major culprits. Agriculture, nature, industry, and human encrochment(sp) i.e. pleasure boats, jet ski, dams, river channeling. Carp have become a favored sporting anglers scape goat. They don't do that. They are meticulous and effecient grubbers actually.

 

In fact, some research found cloudy margins, usually not caused by carp, to be protective nurseries for fry from predators and actually increased the percent of spawn that survived to maturity.

 

The Aussies became a great source for the anti-carp research studies. Equally FWIW, the Hungarians are very pro carp researchers. The Aussies seemed to delight in an anti-UK backlash toward carp as carp were "catching on" in England. Maybe a cultural thing??

 

Phone

Ohh, also FWIW, I have never read ANY research from anywhere that supports the "muddy water" killing natives theory. Although I'll be the first to tell you carp "taste" exactly like the water they come from - foul or sweet - the water quality is in the flesh.

 

Edit: I must have gotten the English word right. It turned into *****.

Edited August 27, 2011 by Phone

[Newt]

The Aussies need to study the waters in the Florida peninsula. Nice warm weather, lakes & rivers that support large fish populations, plenty of carp to the north of them including the section of the Florida panhandle where I live, and zero carp down on the peninsula.

 

If anyone can figure out what conditions have led to the lack, they could probably make use of the information.

[Rusty]

Yet...The carp were introduced about 150yrs ago, and found the conditions to their liking.

Many waters over here have only had them introduced over the last 30yrs, and even if the conditions make spawning sporadic, then the constant topping up will ensure that their numbers increase.

 

John.

 

What do you think would happen to carp numbers if fishery owners stopped topping up the stock and left the water to its own devices John? Would a balance with other species be reached eventually or are carp so hardy and well established that they would continue to dominate.

 

If we are heading for a problem of Australian proportions can we still act to prevent it?

[Vagabond]

If we are heading for a problem of Australian proportions can we still act to prevent it?

 

Preventative action would probably work - we have the saving grace of cold winters that Australia has not, so once the artificial stocking in Britain ceased, carp populations would revert to lower levels. Remember how in the 1960's carp journalists used to write about "Winterkill" ? - haven't seen that word for some time.

 

Many British winters are too cold for carp fry to survive (has anyone any precise data ?, I'm sure I read some somewhere)

Edited August 27, 2011 by Vagabond