Australian Carp Article

[Phone]

Newt,

 

Can you say alligator?

 

Phone

(just kidding, but boy you sure don't have any carp)

 

Vagabond,

 

Carp cannot survive in water below 50F. What they can do is "go without" for up to seven months before parishing. For spawn to be successful the water needs to be mid- 60's at a minimum (but they can spawn any time of the year or more than once).

 

As for fry, I have never frozen fry out. I don't even know what the parameter of such a study would be? From egg to fry to "juvie" doesn't take long for carp in water above 65 - 70F. That's the problem - they are prolific in favorable water. And, even worse, smaller females actually have a larger spawn than the "big ole girls". 8 lb carp is prime.

 

Phone

[Sportsman]

10 years or so ago the shooting world in the UK was full of stories about overstocked commercial shoots who produced easy shooting for anyone who could afford to pay for it (sound familiar?).

Foreigners would come over and pay handsomely for obscene bags, most of which were disposed of as no-one wanted them. I remember a story in the NE of scotland where a so called "Goose Guide" took a party of Italian shooters after wild geese over decoys. They shot so many that they had to hire a JCB to bury them.

These excesses caused a backlash and now are rarely if ever seen. The new generation of shooters have been educated to expect quality rather than quantity.

In my view the same will happen eventually to carp fishing. The anglers who fish only carp commercials will get fed up of being laughed at or seen as second rate and will either learn to fish properly or leave the sport. That is what happened to the yuppy shooters in the 80s who had the money and the gear but no background in the sport to guide them.

Once the money starts to dwindle the excessive stocking will dwindle with it, with the possible exception of match fisheries where the financial incentive is much greater.

Without the continued stocking and given the colder climate I thing that carp will once again reach a balance where they will be an angling challenge worthy of the name.

 

In France, apart from the (usually) UK owned big carp venues there are carp in just about every lake and pond. They don't particularly dominate and they don't seem to cause water quality issues. I have carp up to 20lb in my lake but it is also stuffed with Roach and Rudd up to a pound, Perch, Tench and Chub to reasonable sizes. I would like to get a Pike or two to thin out some of the tiny silvers but I am quite happy with the balance as it is and water quality and clarity is fine.

Edited August 27, 2011 by Sportsman

[Phone]

Sportsman,

 

I agree, For some reason "fish harvest" is a bad word in the UK for sport fish. Your example makes sense if reasonable controls are in place. C&R can kill only so many fish that are out of control. In the UK it looks like you are still searching for enough places for everyone that wants to fish to go (enought plesant water)?

 

Phone

(US/Canada and probably Australia(?) don't have that problem yet).

Edited August 27, 2011 by Phone

[Ken L]

10 years or so ago the shooting world in the UK was full of stories about overstocked commercial shoots who produced easy shooting for anyone who could afford to pay for it (sound familiar?).

Foreigners would come over and pay handsomely for obscene bags, most of which were disposed of as no-one wanted them. I remember a story in the NE of scotland where a so called "Goose Guide" took a party of Italian shooters after wild geese over decoys. They shot so many that they had to hire a JCB to bury them.

These excesses caused a backlash and now are rarely if ever seen. The new generation of shooters have been educated to expect quality rather than quantity.

In my view the same will happen eventually to carp fishing. The anglers who fish only carp commercials will get fed up of being laughed at or seen as second rate and will either learn to fish properly or leave the sport. That is what happened to the yuppy shooters in the 80s who had the money and the gear but no background in the sport to guide them.

Once the money starts to dwindle the excessive stocking will dwindle with it, with the possible exception of match fisheries where the financial incentive is much greater.

Without the continued stocking and given the colder climate I thing that carp will once again reach a balance where they will be an angling challenge worthy of the name.

 

Interesting analogy.

1. Shooting probably came as close as it ever has to being banned as the wider public started to become aware of the goings on at some of the big estate shoots at about the time you're talking about.

2. The fish welfare issues (disease, torn mouths etc) and public comments from anglers about much loved freshwater predators in some commercial fisheries are in danger of generating much the same sort of public perception of angling not as they had of shooting 15 or 20 years ago.

3. Unlike on a shooting estate, once those pasties go in, there's no putting the fishery right for 15 or 20 years unless to are prepared to net it or initiate a catch and kill policy.

[gozzer]

What do you think would happen to carp numbers if fishery owners stopped topping up the stock and left the water to its own devices John? Would a balance with other species be reached eventually or are carp so hardy and well established that they would continue to dominate.

 

If we are heading for a problem of Australian proportions can we still act to prevent it?

 

IMO Rusty, we would still have a problem for many years. As Vagabond said, our saving grace as been our 'cold' winters, which reduces the chances of fry survival. But if we have a couple of hot summers, followed by mild winters, then I could see the problem being prolonged. Many of the carp stocked in commercials are a fast growing strain, so will be quickly out of the range of our native preds, (apart from otters of course ). I speak mainly of my local rivers, and the carp are being caught more and more often, especially over the last dozen or so years. The smaller species are struggling a bit, (for many reasons), and the introduction of such a hardy species is making it even worse.

I don't know what research Phone has done, I've done none, other than what I've witnessed with my own eyes. Carp do eat spawn, I've watched them taking roach and perch eggs from weed. They do eat weed, either as a by product of what's on it, or for the weed itself. They do muddy waters, every one who has seen a muddy commercial has witnessed it. It is depended on the make up of the bed of the water of course.

I wish I shared Sportsmans optimism, that the bubble will burst and anglers will realise. But what will happen to the carp in these abandoned lakes/ponds? Will they just disappear? No they will still be escaping into the system where they are able, they will still be transferred by unthinking or just plain stupid, anglers. (Maybe making them into otter sanctuarys would be a good idea). If they were to be come 'so last year' that anglers stopped fishing for them. The major commercial interests in angling would then find another 'in thing' to promote, maybe barbel, which will cause the same problem to waters if newly introduced, or increased in numbers.

I don't blame any newcomer, or young angler for not seeing a problem, it's the norm for them, but if what I and many others believe happens, the the change will become more rapid, and then they will notice.

 

It's like the words of the old Joni Mitchell song 'Big Yellow Taxi'. "Don't it always seem to go, that you don't know what you've got till it's gone".

 

John.

[Bobj]

Newt,

 

Can you say alligator?

 

Phone

(just kidding, but boy you sure don't have any carp)

 

Vagabond,

 

Carp cannot survive in water below 50F. What they can do is "go without" for up to seven months before parishing. For spawn to be successful the water needs to be mid- 60's at a minimum (but they can spawn any time of the year or more than once).

 

As for fry, I have never frozen fry out. I don't even know what the parameter of such a study would be? From egg to fry to "juvie" doesn't take long for carp in water above 65 - 70F. That's the problem - they are prolific in favorable water. And, even worse, smaller females actually have a larger spawn than the "big ole girls". 8 lb carp is prime.

 

Phone

 

Not so, mate...

 

An extract from Wikipedia:

common carp prefer large bodies of slow or standing water and soft, vegetative sediments. A schooling fish, they prefer to be in groups of 5 or more. They naturally live in a temperate climate in fresh or slightly brackish water with a pH of 6.5–9.0 and salinity up to about 5‰,[14] and temperatures of 3 to 35 °C.[2] The ideal temperature is 23 to 30 °C, with spawning beginning at 17–18 °C; they will readily survive winter in a frozen over pond, as long as some free water remains below the ice.[14] Carp are able to tolerate water with very low oxygen levels, by gulping air at the surface.[3]

 

http://fishingtasmania.net/live/carp-draft/

 

I used to live in NSW nearly 50 years ago and saw a once pristine river, The Barwon, at Collarenerbri, deteriorate to a series of mud pools. At one stage, one could get a scoop net and in 1 dip catch perhaps 50 -60 carp to 4". The goodoo gorged themselves to the point that they became a huge target for unscrupulous "fishos" and now, sadly, the river is all but devoid of the mighty goodoo.

 

http://www.dpi.nsw.gov.au/aboutus/news/rec...he-barwon-river

[poledark]

Agree with Wiki. Fact..carp can survive water temps as low as 31degF, and I have caught them two years running (end of Jan with ice on the lake, and water temp of 31F) Big ones, up to 29lbs, two on at once one day. Not a "commercial" either.

 

I wonder how many more "facts" are being bandied about on here? Telling a porkie and getting others to repeat it, does not make it true, and just because a few oddballs keep stating the "fact" that carp are a problem does not make that true either.

 

 

Already been said that massive abstraction causing low (almost no) flow is one (if not the) major cause of the clouding of the waters in Oz.

 

Also been said that most british species can (and do) live happily with carp, record bream for example

 

Den

[Phone]

Den, Bobj,

 

No argument from me. Carp can survive up to 7 months under the stressed conditions you represent. 50 F or slightly lower carp can only digest up to 7% of what they injest. Not near enough to sustain life or reproduce. At some point during the year they have to have some warmer water.

Den,

 

They, carp, are not "feeding" in these cold water. They are mearly going through instinstive exercises without a feeding response. You're lucky (or hard headed) to catch carp in cold water, not skilled. BTW, the coldest a reasonably deep lake (3m) can get is 39 F at or near the bottom. That's when water is most dense - or - why ice forms on the top.

 

Bobj,

 

We (North America) too have examples of "carp gone wild". Too (maybe "to"?) bad really. Are you suggesting the reason the river dried up was the carp? No question serious controls must be instituted when they go "bonkers" (through no fault of their own really). You have me at a HUGE disadvantage since OZ is on my "bucket list" but as yet not accomplished. NO idea here.

 

Phone

[Vagabond]

Carp cannot survive in water below 50F. What they can do is "go without" for up to seven months before parishing. For spawn to be successful the water needs to be mid- 60's at a minimum (but they can spawn any time of the year or more than once)

 

OK, but it is not quite so simple as that.

 

The spawning has to be early enough in the British summer for the fry to have reached a size (by, say November) at which they can "go without" for long enough to survive the winter.

 

Although carp may well spawn in late summer when water is warm enough, the fry will still be quite small at the onset of winter and will not survive unless the winter is exceptionally mild. So only warm springs/early summers are conducive to carp fry survival. That has been what has kept the "wild" carp population to "acceptable" (by which I mean acceptable to Gozzer and me ) levels until recent years - carp in natural waters do not spawn successfully every year.

 

...and yes Den, a few carp will co-exist with other species (and vice versa), and apart from "carp commercials" the problem of wall-to-wall carp as faced by the Aussies does not exist here, although ten-pound carp can be a pain when they invade your roach swim, as unwelcome as skimmer bream.

 

....and yes, once over a certain size, carp can survive (and sometimes feed) in icy conditions, but that is quite irrelevant to the question of fry survival.

 

Unless you have fished Australian waters, and seen the problem for yourself, it is difficult to understand the scope of it. A whole river system (with a catchment area of many thousands of square miles) overrun with carp. Not just the rivers, but the billabongs and oxbow lakes beside the rivers, and the lakes on the floodplains - you can't blame that on "irrigation"

[Leon Roskilly]

Hmmm! 16% prefer the taste of carp to cod!!

 

If freshwater fish-farming takes off on a significant scale, numbers of waters now available to anglers may be lost to commercial fish production.

 

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/foodanddrink/87...eplace-cod.html