Livebaiting for pike

[Guest TheDacer]

Oi!

 

If you could see what my neighbours have just done to a (once) magnificent victorian house - you'd know just what I mean about cruelty to inanimate objects!

[Guest Spiderfan]

The definition of ‘cruel’ according to my dictionary involves pain; either delighting in inflicting pain on others or by causing pain and suffering.

 

Logically, if you accept that fish don’t feel pain then cruelty is impossible.

 

So, it’s OK to have a kick-around with a carp because you’ve forgotten your football? How about a game of garfish-darts down the pub? Or a discus-bream throwing contest?

 

Yes, I am being facetious. If we were that discourteous to our quarry, we would hardly bother with unhooking mats, knotless nets, barbless hooks, safe rigs and the like.

 

But it does seem like double-standards, especially for an outsider, to see one person stick a hook in the back of the same fish another will handle with cooled, wet hands and carefully return to the water.

 

Yet if we can’t hurt them, why should we bother being careful? Surely they’re as insensitive and unaffected by kindness as they are indifferent to pain?

 

However, if you accept that a fish does feel pain, what then? Hypothetically speaking, what if it was proven that fish do feel pain? Would it change your views and practices voluntarily or would you wait for a ‘law’ to be changed? And would you flout that ‘law’ after it had been changed?

 

 

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Fan of Spiders

[Guest 'eelfisher']

Dear Spiderfan

Interesting post.

I had not considered how people hook up their lives.....through the back?....can't say that I have done this for many many many years.

I only use singles for ALL my piking and always lip hook the baits.

This is no different to catching the fish in the first instance other than me hand hooking the bait.

The crux of the 'cruel' bit of livebaiting for me is....."Does the roach tremble in fear before the eel, zander, perch, pike, catfish or chub snaffle it.

I do not know the answer to this. However, I do not think that it knows too much about the take when it happens.

As I say, an interesting change of direction at this stage....it'll be something else to see the reactions to your post.

With regard to 'Steady on's' post about 'The Dacer'.....not fair old man.

'The Dacer' has his views....I am fine with him expressing them....my only concern is WHY he, and others, are doing so.

Maybe they are just giving us a dry run for the debate that will one day arrive. If so, then the sensible people on here who will debate the issues should continue to not give away 'our' arguements for retension of the right to livebait.

Yours With Respect.....

Steve.

[Guest Steady On]

I did not intend to be rude to Dacer, everyone has a right to express their views and I don't think Dacer was offended. It might look a facetious comment, but I think that what I wrote was valid, his subsequent views about cruelty to houses do put his opinions on cruelty in fishing into perspective and to some extent devalue them. I do not think his attitude is mainstream.

 

The difference between one angler returning a fish carefully and then another using that same fish for bait does seem to be in conflict at first glance, but the two scenarios are quite different. None of us would wish to cause damage to the watery environment so taking care of a fish that is to be returned is an obvious course of action to guarantee our future sport. But the whole object of using a livebait dictates that it is not to be returned, it is no different in that respect to killing the fish and using it as bait. The impact on the environment is negligible, all fish are born to be eaten and if the livebait was not available the pike would find another meal, the net effect on fish stocks is zero.

[Guest Spiderfan]

Hi Eelfisher,

 

Your ‘trembling with fear’ comment is interesting. I have noticed when paternostering lives that there is sometimes an ‘increase in activity’ by the baitfish, indicated by a bobbing of the float or bouncing of the rod tip, just prior to a take. This happens with such regularity that I am mentally prepared for the run when it arrives.

 

I have attributed this to the scenario that the baitfish has seen the predator approach and gone into ‘flight mode’. The predator can see that it’s intended meal can’t go anywhere, and merely waits and strikes when the baitfish realises it isn’t going anywhere and settles down again (or gets tired).

 

Whether ‘flight mode’ equals fear, I have my doubts, as I don’t think you can draw parallels with human emotions/sensitivity and animal instinct. All I do know is that if I were in that position, I’d be fearful and very uncomfortable.

 

Respect returned with interest.

 

 

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Fan of Spiders

[Guest TheDacer]

Steady On.. no offence was taken! But the bit about cruelty to houses (and inanimate objects) is tongue-in-cheek.

 

So my objections on grounds of cruelty still stand.

 

Sorry!

[Guest pikehunter]

I'm not against it but i most certainly wouldn't do it myself ask your self this:-

 

Would you tie up your budgie and wait for a cat to shred it?? or a rabbit for your dog maybe???

Thought not then why a fish just cause you can't see the result. Would you still do it if you saw a pike smash in to that live roach YOU placed there.

 

If so then good luck to ya you fibbin toerags.

 

If you can't stand to fail at catching without such methods maybe you are fishing for the wrong species.

[Guest 'eelfisher']

Dear pikehunter

I watch many of my live roach being taken by pike....It doesn't bother me because I do not think that the 'fear' factor is the same as a budgie and a cat.

Spiderfan, I too have seen this 'activity' but do not equate this to 'fear' as we know it....only instinct to not stay around when pike are on the feed.

Pike and roach are very happy to hang steady in groups when the pike are not in feeding mode...its a strange companionship.

Certainly, I wouldn't sit with a pack of wolves when they were not hungry....because I know that soon enough they would soon be just that...

We need to keep our feelings out of this and accept that 'steady on' has made a good point in his last post about nature's actions.

Yours With Respect.....

Steve.

[Guest TheDacer]

You don't think that the fear factor for the budgie & the cat are the same as the fish. But you don't actually know. It's just something you think.

 

Likewise I think they are the same - albeit in a different sense to how humans feel pain and fear - but, like you, I do not actually know.

 

It's clearly impossible to keep feelings out of it.

 

(I agree, though, with what you say about Steady On's post - he makes a good point. I'm much more inclined to listen to that sort of viewpoint than the 'united we stand' sort of argument).

[Guest 'eelfisher']

Dear 'The Dacer'

Thanks for the reply.....

I would say that we both hold opinions that we are not sure about but support.

The fact that they differ from each other doesn't bother me at all because I never thought that I was 100% right in my own thoughts.

Interestingly, saying what you think via the written word is difficult because everyone can interpret everyone elses writing in a different manner.....certainly you and I are able to do this, as are others on this forum.

I do, however, agree with your last sentence in your post...it is a much better way of debating and defending the method.

Looking back at the thread now, I can see just how difficult this fight will be IF it comes along. (I say IF because I do not KNOW if it will....however, I suspect it will eventually.)

I think Pinkeye's thread should win the monthly award for getting us all to keep reletively decent in our posts answers and that it managed to get to 100 posts without anyone leaving the site in a huff.

Yours With Respect....

Steve.

PS...And we are still talking as friends even now.