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Guest Pinkeye

Livebaiting for pike

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Guest Leon Roskilly
Originally posted by pickerel:

No-one (at least I don't think so) is suggesting that fish have higher order feelings such as conscience or love, but pain and fear are pretty primitive, I'd've thought, even in humans.




You might be interested in this article which appeared in New Scientist not so long ago.


Tight Lines - leon




Neil Boyce, reporting from the American Association for the Advancement of Science in New Scientist (6 Feb 1999) writes:-


Painful choices


FROGS could help resolve one of the toughest dilemmas in animal experimentation. Because they lack the brain structures which allow mammals to feel pain, they might be used as a less contentious way of testing new painkilling drugs.


The crux of the problem is that you can’t find out how well an analgesic works without first inflicting pain.


In a typical experiment you would compare how long it takes for a rat on a hotplate to raise one of its hind legs before and after it receives a new drug.


Now Craig Stevens of Oklahoma StateUniversity in Tulsa has developed the first amphibian model for testing pain-killers.


He drips acetic acid on the hind legs of the leopard-spotted frog, Rana pipiens, and times how long it takes the frog to wipe the acid away.


His studies show that well-known painkillers such as the opiates morphine and codeine have similar effects on this response as they do in the rat hotplate test.


“It does have an ethical advantage,” says Stevens. “Frogs don’t have any of the structures that in humans and other mam-mals are used for pain perception.”


They have no limbic cortex, which is responsible for emotional responses like dread and fear, and also can’t be conditioned to learn to expect the acid application. “They don’t jump away. They don’t show any of the fear responses,” he says.


“If it proved to answer the same questions, pharmaceuticals companies will be embracing that,” predicts Kerry Taylor of the Southern Research Institute in Frederick Maryland. Stevens also says he can buy and keep six frogs for the price of one rat, so his model is cheap as well.

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Guest Richard Capper

The response of fish fleeing at strange shadows or predators etc is almost certainly a genetic character as there is no parental care (in the species we are discussing anyway).

Thus any 'fear' responses will be entirely unconcious. Even if they are learnt responses such as your mouth watering to the smell of your favourite meal.


However just beacause they can't experience fear, pain or anxiety DOESN'T mean it is not cruel or perhaps for want of a better word wrong to kill them unnessisarily (how do you spell that?)!

So here we are at the hinge point whether you personally find it nessesary and thus accectable to use live baits. Afterall deadbaits have been killed so you can use them too!

It all comes down to personal morality.

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Guest kreid

I thikk we are missing the point here. The issue is not led by the moralities of livebaiting per se .They couldn't give a toss. The game lobby along with Scottish Natural Heritage want to stop the spread of non indoginous species . Bit late now. Scotland is full of them , many introduced by the game or country lobby . I mean pheasants , rabbits ,Douglas Firs etc. Add on landscapes ruined by overgrazing and loss of habitat of true native species . No word of these! Rainbow trout are hardly a native species. Ok , they dont spawn , but where they escape they do a lot of harm to native species. Then brown trout are stocked into waters ,but they aren't the natural strain of local trout. The true strain is diluted in many lochs and rivers . You could even say bastardised....

If these non native species that Edinburgh is so worried about were game species , or brought a lot of money into the economy , there would I feel ,be a lot less hue and cry.

Sign the PAC petition now and send it off. Print one from www.pacgb.co.uk

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Guest Bruno Broughton

For anyone wanting a box of asprins or sedatives after visiting this thread: sorry, I have a PhD in zoology (hence 'Doctor') but no medical qualifications.


Leon's post covers much of the ground contained in Jim Rose's paper "Do Fish Feel Pain?". If any of you would like a posted copy, please contact me with your address via my email.


It's quite an easy read, and it summarises the arguments nicely.






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