Otter

[Worms]

I agree that a lot of it is "knee jerk reaction" but maybe the reason that it is so "polarised" is that the problem is indeed "polarised"? In other words the "non knee jerkers" who are objecting to Otters actually do have a problem with them in their area and the rest of us who dont have a problem with them in our areas cant empathise because of this?

Possibly Budgie but the guy is calling for otter culls whilst guiding on the Wye....a river that is at peak otter population levels. Surely if he had an ounce of sense he would see that otters are not the issue....obviously there's no problem with angling on the Wye! If also, the natural otter population spread and increase is due to suitable habitat and an abundance of food (even if it is from stocked ponds) then the knee jerkers and non knee jerkers need to point the finger elsewhere. After all, grants are available to fisheries for otter fences so why don't they at least minimise their risks from predation? The constant restocking of some rivers and ponds etc. is artificially supplying predators with opportunities to feed. Perhaps the EA and anglers should resist stocking and angling on waterways that have other problems e.g. pollution until such times as natural fish stocks take hold. Predator numbers will decline and prey numbers will increas until such time as a balanced head of fish is present. This is the only 'control' that I would see as practical...and balanced.

 

My belief is that a significant number of vocal fishery owners don't see why they should have to protect their stock. They're earning a pretty penny from anglers on their supermarket angling ponds and don't see why they should contribute a penny to keep their income. The ecology of our country and prevention of accidental introduction of alien species and associated diseases and parasites doesn't seem to bother some....as long as they can bring the punters in. Roberts keeps going on about farmers' rights to kill dogs that worry stock...he conveniently forgets that farmers fence their stock in!

 

I know it's poor form to criticise others' spelling and literacy levels on internet fora etc. and I apologise in advance but, from a scientific perspective there does seem to be a significant correlation between the anger of knee jerkers and their (apparent) lack of literacy!

[Dick Dastardly]

I totally agree Nick.But as well as kind of playing Devils Advocate I often worry it might be me that's being narrow minded? I thought this might have been the case over the Eastern European thing but considering how much fishing I did in SW London and now how many Polish people live in Ashford I'm pretty sure my initial views were based on enough first hand experience! But like I said to Redfin/Rabbit we've not really got masses of otters in my area so maybe I'm being biased and not understanding the problem some in other areas may have? Hard to be sure as there are (so it seems) just so many idiots out there these days who want to jump on what ever "bandwagon" is fashionable to explain why they cant catch fish!

 

But with Bobs history its hardly suprising Im not prepared to give much credence to anything he says !

[gozzer]

I agree that a lot of it is "knee jerk reaction" but maybe the reason that it is so "polarised" is that the problem is indeed "polarised"? In other words the "non knee jerkers" who are objecting to Otters actually do have a problem with them in their area and the rest of us who dont have a problem with them in our areas cant empathise because of this?

 

I think you'd have to define 'problem' Budgie. The problems I keep hearing about, are mainly ones mentioning the monetary value of lost fish, rarely any ecological loss.

If that is the main 'problem' then the answer is in their own hands, and one that I don't really want to bother with.

 

There is no doubt that some areas are feeling the effects more than others, but that is to be expected in areas where the otter had disappeared, but are now present. I believe that the spread of otters has been greatly helped by the creation of overstocked waters. The easy pickings on such waters has caused the survival rates of young otters to be artificially high. When they are chased from the area by the older ones, we have more otters looking for new territory, and abnormally high numbers are seen in some areas. They will spread out faster, simply because there are more of them surviving to that age. These are just my thoughts, and I would like to see some data where it compares otter survival rates in areas where there are lots of this type of water, and those without, (if there is such a place).

 

John.

 

Cross posted with Nick, I must get faster at typing.

Edited January 31, 2012 by gozzer

[Worms]

I totally agree Nick.But as well as kind of playing Devils Advocate I often worry it might be me that's being narrow minded? I thought this might have been the case over the Eastern European thing but considering how much fishing I did in SW London and now how many Polish people live in Ashford I'm pretty sure my initial views were based on enough first hand experience! But like I said to Redfin/Rabbit we've not really got masses of otters in my area so maybe I'm being biased and not understanding the problem some in other areas may have? Hard to be sure as there are (so it seems) just so many idiots out there these days who want to jump on what ever "bandwagon" is fashionable to explain why they cant catch fish!

 

But with Bobs history its hardly suprising Im not prepared to give much credence to anything he says !

I see your point Budgie. Unfortunately with so much 'anecdotal evidence' against otters and nothing proven it's difficult to present a more reason based argument for some areas.

 

An interesting aside, I was working in Northamptonshire prior to otter re-introductions and I found carp at a bird reserve in the north of the county that had been killed, dragged from the water and part eaten...fish of high single to low double figures. The only (large) fish predators on that site at the time were mink and herons...and Humans of course... the photographs showing the damage to individual fish constantly on the 'net' today are identical to the injuries I saw...never saw an otter print or spraint but saw loads of mink, badger and rat prints and droppings!

[Dick Dastardly]

Problem = Otters killing significant numbers of large fish

 

Er suppose I best define "significant"!

 

Significant= enough to cause a noticeable impact on anglers sport

 

And no Im not going to define noticable as Im sure this could go on ad infinitum and also you all know what Im trying to say!

[Steve Walker]

To me, it's the same old same old who used to chuck every pike they got their hands on into the bushes. Didn't take them seriously when they wanted to slaughter pike, not going to start taking them seriously now it's otters.

 

There are lots of anglers who blank and then look to blame a lack of fish, pointing the finger at predators of one form or another. Always have been, always will be, the sort who think more stocking is the solution to every woe.

 

There are issues with keeping unfenced stew ponds, same way that if you don't fence your chickens off the fox will have 'em. That's a different matter to natural predator prey issues in real waters, and the solution is to keep the otters out.

[Dick Dastardly]

There is also a lot of the (I can hear the younger/newer carpers groaning "not again" all ready!" a bit of the fashion following and "I love fish more than anyone else there go I am a great angler" thing going on here as well!

[Anderoo]

The problem I have is that even if there was a secret conspiracy to breed and release otters all over the place (which despite plenty of evidence to the contrary loads of people believe, Martin Bowler even hinted at it on his recent embarrassing foray into TV land), there's a cast-iron assumption that presence of otters = destroyed lakes and rivers, with most if not all the fish killed in a matter of weeks.

 

I am in a position where my locals waters have resident otter populations, and can see quite plainly that they are having no more effect on fish stocks than any other native predator. It is normal. It's a fact that many seem to find either uncomfortable or completely alien, but I'm afraid fish exist to breed and to be eaten. That is what they're for!

 

So I also can't empathise with those who are wailing about the end of the world, but for different reasons to Budgie.

 

People like Bob Roberts just want to shout and be heard, if it wasn't this it'd be something else.

[Dick Dastardly]

People like Bob Roberts just want to shout and be heard, if it wasn't this it'd be something else.

 

 

Exactly! And all the "I want to be heard as well" others who haven't yet cottoned on that Bobs an idiot just follow suit! By associating themselves with the views of people/bodies they think are influential/respected/knowledgeable they are hoping to be regarded as the same.

[chesters1]

in the non angling world "fluffy" always wins over "slimy" ,never seen an otter perhaps the "explosion " is in the head?