Otter

[Dick Dastardly]

Not a case of liking or not for me Mark all I "like" are facts so I can try and form an informed opinion.Out of interest (not that I'm doubting you but if I am in turn going to quote this information I would like to know!) where did your information come from?

[Worms]

You may not like this but otters have been bred and released unofficially in substantial numbers in addition to the official legal ones. Getting the true story is obviously difficult as it wasn't legal but there were several places doing this. In one case I'm told an injunction had to be taken against those responsible to stop it because they wouldn't listen to reason. Part of the reason for stopping it was that the breeding was often from the same pair (sometimes siblings!) so inbreeding that continued in the wild meant too many genetic defects. It was DNA testing (of spraints) that showed that the otters in different catchments were much too closely related than would ordinarily be the case. This means that the gene pool of the current English otter population is very small; not exactly what should have occurred. Little or nothing was ever done to assess the impact on fish populations or other wildlife but it's too late now.

So I keep hearing Mark but, I have found no evidence, only anecdotal evidence appearing on anti-otter posts on angling fora. Do you have any contacts, paperwork or other evidence? If so I would be very grateful if I could see it. Total anonymity would be assured.

 

P.M. me if you can help!

 

Regards, Nick.

[Phone]

Worms,

I read (twice) with interest EA’s 5th Otter Survey of England. (My motive was a search for diet as you might imagine).

 

You really don’t have many otters, do you? I assume EA surveyed places they expected otter to flourish and found only 170 out of 2940 sites had otters and the otter that were a significant population were along the Welch border. That’s not many otter. My point is otter are not widely distributed throughout England as this thread would suggest. The total recovery is 58.8% - what does this mean in numbers. 58.8% of what? (maybe since 1977, the first survey? – but no actual animal numbers are given).

 

My question, while the report hinted at a decline in otter based primarily on organochlorine pesticides was from (1950 – 1970’s). Do you know of any report or have an opinion that would estimate the number of environmental “fish kills” from incidents created by man made un-natural sources vs the number of fish eaten, or could have been eaten by native otter in a similar time frame? I would be interested if there are numbers that would make a direct correlation. Just my guess, we’re still killing plenty of fish and otter. And my guess is that it would take a LOT of otter to eat the fish that we have killed with pesticides.

 

I do notice your otter are becoming somewhat like ours, showing an increased “tolerance for human disturbances”.

 

Phone

(I wonder how many dead otter were "reported" as road kill that were NOT? I a skeptic.)

[Worms]

Looks like Bob Roberts is no longer accepting comments from anybody now...

 

Redfin2, is that you Jeremy?

 

If anybody would like to visit my facebook page "Anglers Against Anglers who constantly seek otter culls" and make comments (otter lover or not) please do. I only request that discussion is kept polite and informative where possible. I will include links to other sites of "interest" but blatant abuse or insulting language regarding other sites or persons will not be seen as polite and acceptable discussion. I would also like to encourage as many non-anglers to the site if possible so please tell friends, family etc. so a balanced view of otters can be presented. Those of an "anti-otter" persuasion please contribute as well. I hope that through sensible discussion and sharing of valid facts we can, together clarify many misconceptions...on all sides!

 

here

Edited February 1, 2012 by Worms

[John Weddup]

You may not like this but otters have been bred and released unofficially in substantial numbers in addition to the official legal ones. Getting the true story is obviously difficult as it wasn't legal but there were several places doing this. In one case I'm told an injunction had to be taken against those responsible to stop it because they wouldn't listen to reason. Part of the reason for stopping it was that the breeding was often from the same pair (sometimes siblings!) so inbreeding that continued in the wild meant too many genetic defects. It was DNA testing (of spraints) that showed that the otters in different catchments were much too closely related than would ordinarily be the case. This means that the gene pool of the current English otter population is very small; not exactly what should have occurred. Little or nothing was ever done to assess the impact on fish populations or other wildlife but it's too late now.

 

There has also been official culling recently (not killing but removal to other areas) because of the deleterious impact on other wildlife - not something that is shouted about. I suspect this will happen more and more and possibly there will be some culling on sensitive sites when there is nowhere to move them to. This is why otters suddenly turned up in new areas in the last couple of years. The overstocking of otters has also led to dominant male otters killing newcomers/reintroduced otters.

 

The impact of cormorants seems very localised. In Dorset there are waters completely devastated by cormorants (middle Stour now has less than 10% of the fish population it should support) and large colonies on major stillwaters and harbours yet some waters have been unscathed apart from very occasional visits. Dace seem to be particularly badly hit as a species.

 

Dorset was heavily hit by mink from about 1973 onwards. The voles and rats disappeared on waters that I fished circa 1974. The mink have gone now along with the farms that bred them. The rats have come back but it will be a long haul for the voles. I haven't seen a mink for 5 years now.

 

 

I have to say this is the most accurate description I have read that fits the situation locally to me aswell.

 

This quote is taken from The EDP norfolk today

 

"Further upstream at Billingford the summer EA electro fishing survey showed not one dace, roach or chub present, and a 46pc decline in fish stocks – a fall by nearly a half – over five sampled sites down to just below Wainford Maltings Bungay."

 

This was a well stocked river.

 

John

[Dick Dastardly]

I have to say this is the most accurate description I have read that fits the situation locally to me aswell.

 

This quote is taken from The EDP norfolk today

 

"Further upstream at Billingford the summer EA electro fishing survey showed not one dace, roach or chub present, and a 46pc decline in fish stocks – a fall by nearly a half – over five sampled sites down to just below Wainford Maltings Bungay."

 

This was a well stocked river.

 

John

 

And are there noticably a lot of otters there then John?

[Worms]

This was a well stocked river.

 

John

Why did it need stocking?

[Guest redfin2]

Redfin2, is that you Jeremy?

 

Who's Jeremy

 

 

here

[barry luxton]

from: here

 

 

Most excellent link Nick, highlighting the facts that it was the natural recovery of the animal following restriction on the use of chemical, rather than the small amount of otters bred and released, along with the other 49 or so that where reabilitated. Noted also that the majority were released within a small area of the uk and the re-population commenced in other areas first and foremost. So anyone who uses the re-introduction of the bred otter will be quite clearly incorrect in the asumption that this caused a problem with an assumed shortage of the fish stocks.

 

The Otter Trust released 117 captive-bred otters between 1983 and 1999, mostly on East Anglian rivers, but with some elsewhere. Their last release was of 17 otters on the upper Thames catchment over a six-month period in 1999.

The Vincent Wildlife Trust released a further 49 rehabilitated animals (i.e. orphaned and injured wild otters kept in captivity until fit for release) between 1990 and 1996, many of these as part of a release programme in Yorkshire.

By the early 1990s it was clear that a strong natural recovery of otters from their strongholds in Wales and south-west England meant that reintroductions were no longer necessary, and by the end of the decade the Otter Trust’s programme was wound up. Now descendants of the released otters form only a tiny proportion of the otter population of England, and most wild otters are the result of the natural recovery of the species after the banning of toxic pesticides.

 

Now that one's out of the way, perhaps we can examine the assumption that there is a shortage of feed and the distructive nature of the otter.

Edited February 1, 2012 by barry luxton

[John Weddup]

And are there noticably a lot of otters there then John?

 

 

The waveney valley was were the otter trust was and when they closed they released all they had.

 

There are certainly plenty of otters along the valley and also the river stour in suffolk. They are tame and are seen daytime in town aswell as countryside.

 

John

 

Why did it need stocking?

 

 

Well stocked was my suffolk way of saying had plenty of fish not stocked as in adding fish.

 

John