Deadbaiting Archie Braddock style

[jeepster]

shop bought snap tackles and traces are a regular bugbear on here, i'm sure some of them are ok (i used some drennan snaps before i saw the light and started twisting my own, and they were ok) but the majority are cheap nasty rubbish

[Dick Dastardly]

Why does anyone think a swallowed double comes out any easier than a swallowed treble? Doubles can be just as hard to invert.People arnt just continuing to use trebles"despite the problems" with them.They use them because there isnt (or should I say they dont have)a problem with them.Treble hooks dont cause deep hooking,bad angling and poor bite detection do.No pattern of hook can cure these two things.In most piking situations (note "most" not all)trebles are a far more effective hooker allowing quicker strikes.It worries me that other set ups being less eficient will encourage people to delay the strike more.

 

Two hooks swallowed is better than three is a bit like saying lets fit cars with foam bumpers so it doesnt hurt when drunks run people over!Nothing wrong with the car its the idiot behind the wheel.Same as trebles its the idiot behind the rod that lets them get swallowed or cant remove them.As Ive said before I have used both singles and doubles and chose against them.I have no problem with others choosing differently just as long as they use them as responsibley as I use my trebles.I do have a problem with them being pushed as the answer to all deep hooking/unhooking situations,they are not, as simple as that.No easy "buy it down the tackle shop" way here Im afraid you just have to learn what to do.

 

All that said it is most comendable that people are looking at ways of limiting damage to pike,note I said limiting as the only way to stop it is by stopping fishing for them full stop.Just remember that there is nothing new in fishing and what you are experimenting with now has been done before.Some like it and stick with it others dont and return to what they allready use.Im a great believer in "if it aint broke dont fix it".And "dont knock another mans ways because YOU cant get on with them".

 

"Peter waller, however, states that more and more of the fish he catches have somebody elses snap-tackle stuck in their throats."

Peter says nothing of the sort mate I think you are refering to Gerrys comment.If so please see my comment about it.

['eelfisher']

Dear ALL

 

Once again another sound and accurate post from Budgie.

 

I'll back that 100%.

 

For the debate........

 

I use singles when live and small dead baiting.....why, because I find it easier to unhook one rather than six points....however, I strike ALL my runs as soon as I have indication of the bait being picked up......if I lose fish through non hook ups due to my instant striking, then tough says I.

 

I look at it like this....that most pike over 6lb's will have my bait and hook inside the mouth on picking up the bait.....if I fail to connect then I consider the result either a small pike or just unlucky. The very next pick up is hit just as quickly again...I don't miss many fish and I don't lose sleep over not catching.

 

I am soon to start taking my angling companion pike fishing with me......he will be using trebles, by way of me saying so. I shall use a large single and hope that as we fish he can see that the ratio of non hook ups is low enough for him to gain enough confidence to maybe scale down. If he never changes over to single hook set ups then that'll be fine with me as I know that by the end of this winter he will be as competent as myself in the un-hooking circle, by virtue of having been shown the correct way to do it and by striking all his runs straight away...thus 'limiting' the chances of medium to deep hooking.

 

Seeing the float twitch on a dead bait set up means something is at the business end......counting the next 10 cormorants to fly over or making another trace incase the one being used might have to be cut off due to unhooking inabilities before striking is potential murder.

 

I have witnessed a fair few disgusting unhooking proceedures in my time to date.......from standing on their heads and pulling as hard as they can......to pushing a bank stick down the throat to hopefully knock the hooks clear....to just cutting the line and kicking the pike back into the water.

 

Question.....What did the three above stated anglers (can I use that word?????) have in common?

 

Answer......they all got a smack in the mouth from me.....one got two cos he thought I was out of order.

 

Ah well....rant over.

 

Keep spreading the word Budgie.....there are a lot of loonies out there who go pike fishing....and a lot who ain't sure what to do who read these angling sites.

 

Yours With Respect.....

Steve.

[Andrew Burgess]

'eelfisher':

Once again another sound and accurate post from Budgie.

 

I'll back that 100%.

 

Keep spreading the word Budgie.....there are a lot of loonies out there who go pike fishing....and a lot who ain't sure what to do.

Here here I also agree with Budgie

[jeepster]

well theres a first time for everything

[Pangolin]

Eelfisher has noticed that the comparison isn't between a double and a treble hook. The double hook is asymmetric, a large one to hook the pike and a smaller one that stays put, in the deadbait. On Argyll's rigs, the large hook is barbless, making it even better. The majority of inexperienced pikers would use two treble-hooks, so, even if one point of each stays in the deadbait, it's four hook points where one would do. Like eelfisher, I've learned to strike at the first sign of a run, and I don't worry about the odd missed take. When I referred to Peter's comment, Budgie, I meant his impassioned letter in Angler's Mail: in the letter he couldn't offer any solution to the terrible mistreatment of pike, more than any other fish, by those who were catching them. I'm proposing what I think would be a solution: popularising double hooks as deadbait mounts, so that, at least, tackle shops stock them as normal use options. Forget the braid vs wire debate: that's one for the specialists. Most anglers use wire traces, because, next week, they'll be taking the same reel and line on a carp-fishing trip!

My last point, to Budgie, is to ask just how helpful is it, in a debate about treating pike with more respect, to have a voice saying I don't have any problems...'? I can just about believe that you never deep-hook pike (if that is what you are saying), but other people do, whether you like it or not. I applaud Peter for keeping the issue on the agenda.

[Pangolin]

Another pike, another easy unhooking! Today's 8lb fish attracted some curious onlookers. 'I used to catch those', said one, 'but how are you going to get the hooks out of that mouth?' Hey presto!

Another two matchmen, walking the bank prior to tomorrow's match, asked me to take it somewhere else. When I asked 'where?', they said 'chuck it into the hedge!'

[grumpybum]

Why do pike anglers use trebles? Isnt it due to the hard bony mouth of the fish. Using a treble ensures at least one point goes home?

 

I have tried the VB doubles but not the Drennan, there is a difference between them. I have caught pike on them but returned to semi barbless trebles.

 

The problem with double hooks is that they can and do lie flat to the bait so causing missed or dropped runs. Trebles cannot lie flat!

[Peter Waller]

Put one of those Roberts red flag things on the holding hook of a VB double, the hook stands proud then.

 

But I use single circle hooks that hang away from the bait, I don't loose many pike. They are rigged a bit like an arse about hair rig I suppose. The hook comes first rather than the bait! The circle hook is fixed to a trace, obviously. The trace is held to the bait with a size 6 carp hook fixed just above the circle hook. That way the circle hook swing clear of the bait, just! You can always thread them through a small bait and stop the hook pulling into the body with a button. But the point is I no longer think that I need trebles to hook a pike.

['eelfisher']

Dear Grumpybum (difficult to use that name after the polite intro of 'dear')

 

Let me just state a known fact of hooking pike. (Not known by many anglers and pike anglers alike.)

 

When a pike picks up a bait and closes it's mouth, no matter how hard you strike, you will not hook it. The hook taking hold comes when the pike decides to reject the bait after wondering why it is experiencing some form of pressure aginst it's wishes to swim away with it's food. When the pike releases it's grip on the food object, the pressure from us then allows the hook set up to drive home.

 

A fact that is at least 99.9% true with anyone using a single hook whilst pike fishing is this......the hook hold, if the strike is made straight away on the indication of a run, is made in the scissors of the pikes jaws.

 

I will say this....that a double hook set up has an extra point to prevent the hook possibly getting as far as a single hook does.

 

A treble by the virtue of the maths has two extra points to prevent travel.

 

Two singles equates to four points......two trebles.....well you do the maths, it's getting complicated for me now.

 

I use single hooks.....size 1 boiliee hooks. I am confident with that hook arrangement. This confidence came about due to my love of river piking and the use of live baits as my method of fishing for my quarry....I either managed to not hook the pike on the strike (early striking action downside) or hooked them and landed them without problem.

 

Now then......the debate has moved all over the shop here but the crunch line is this.....we do not want deep hooked pike.

 

Fact....nothing can stop that happening 100%.

 

Sensible pike anglers do their absolute best to avoid this.....I do anyway.

 

The result of a deep hooked pike is caused in a couple of ways after the bait is taken.......

 

1. The pike angler counts to 1000 and then pays off a few more feet of line, then holds the line to 'feel' if the pike is still there, then thinks 'wait another minute' just to be sure and then strikes.

 

2. The pike engulfs the bait and necks it right back on hitting the bait.

 

Action 'one' happens far too many times to keep people like Budgie, Peter, Pangolin, myself and many others happy.

 

Action 'two' happens when you are river piking and the pike are 'right on the feed'.

 

River pike don't mess about......most takes are savage but on other days the bites are almost un-noticable for a few moments....either way they don't mess about, they can't afford to.

 

River piking has instilled in me the prompt to strike as soon as indication takes place.....on rivers I strike if anything untoward happens with the bait.

 

I wasn't born a fantastic pike angler.....I ain't a fantastic pike angler in anyone elses eyes but mine.....why do I think I am so good a pike angler?....because I was taught well and have never stopped learning...and I care for my quarry.

 

Experience and confidence are the key issues here.....I cannot stand the stance of pike anglers who just call other less experienced pike anglers dummies.

 

If I had not been taught the right methods when I started out, I am sure that I would be one of those dummies......however, I was shown and taken under wing so to speak.....it is what we must continue to do.....educate, educate, educate.

 

So, in conclusion to this post.....

 

I do not think that single hooks or double hooks are better than trebles......all three hook set ups used without thought are killers.

 

The simple answer is for anglers to be prepared to gamble......strike early and un-hook your hook arrangments from the mouth area 99% of the time.

Strike late and you'll be either entering deep un-hooking hell or panicking and leaving the hooks where they are.

 

My advice......if you don't know how to handle and un-hook pike before lobbing out a pike bait into your particular fishing venue, then seek help......no matter how many books you read on the subject, 'hands on' teaching on the bankside is the best method to gain the confidence to do it properly.

 

Never be afraid to lose a fish just because you strike early.....I'd sooner lose a fish through not making contact than having one die on me due to adopting the selfish attitude of 'fish at any cost'.

 

Apologies for the length of the post......I'll leave the boards for another year now.....maybe.

 

Yours With Respect.....

Steve.

 

PS....If I am on a water where the pike respond better to 'big' baits, then I use two treble hooks on a wire trace.....so that the early strike can still have the chance of a hook up.....you see, it's never always this way, that way, is it.!

 

[ 07. November 2004, 08:39 AM: Message edited by: 'eelfisher' ]