Dangers of particle baits

[Dick Dastardly]

ROF - now there is a serious gut on that fish.

 

The only real knock on tiger nuts I've ever read is that carp can get preoccupied with them and eat without getting any food value since the things can pass through a carp many times without being digested at all so they basically starve while eating as much as they want. As I said though, that's what I've read and it may be as much nonsense as the "swell up and rupture their stomach" comments.

 

 

I have seen this with both Peanuts and Tiger nuts on a couple of waters.They vary from hungry to rich waters such is their attraction for carp. I know several other fishery managers who have found the same as well.

[Vagabond]

As far as fish guts are concerned, then Dick D is right.

 

However, there is one danger associated with any bait, and that is the effect that excessive amounts used in an over-ambitious pre-baiting programme will have on the water itself.

 

I have seen several kilos of sweetcorn rotting on the bottom (that was on a trip to Redmire - very clear water) The carp avoided the area and so did I. ( I knew it was sweetcorn 'cos the lazy tripe-hounds had chucked the tins in as well)

 

It is probably not too much of a problem in an over-stocked commercial (the poor sods need to eat) but on a normal water it must be easy to put in too much bait and thus have some of it rotting. ...and if it is a particle bait, it won't make much odds if it is pre-cooked or not.

 

...and yes I know that leaves fall into water, weeds grow and die in water, fish live and die in water, and so there will be something naturally rotting away all the time. My point is how much extra organic matter can you chuck in and not tip some sort of balance ? What if every angler fishing the lake does likewise ? Thoughts DD ?

 

Recently I watched a carp angler "preparing" a swim on the other side of the lake. He spent over three hours firing out bait (dunno what) Then left. A family of swans moved over the baited area and spent half an hour head down guzzling away, but I doubt they made much impression on the tonnage fired out.

 

Sensible pre-baiting is fine, but always, there is some idiot somewhere with no sense of proportion.

[Tigger]

I hate seeing boilie-gutted fish like that being described in the angling press as 'specimens'

 

 

Don't they describe a human turd as a specimine

[yorkio]

When Benson the wonder carp shuffled off his mortal coil a few years back and his demise was blamed on a surfeit of uncooked tiger nuts, I asked one of our most distinguished fishery scientists* his views on the matter. And he said:

 

There's more myth than fact about the 'uncooked nuts kill carp' theories... not so much an urban myth as a bankside myth, maybe. I accept that some (a few?) fishery owners may have made the cause-and-effect relationship, but it doesn't seem to be backed by scientific fact.

 

If, as the theory goes, nuts would swell in the guts of carp, it is far more likely that this will elongate the food 'sausage', accelerating the speed with which the food passes through the gut and out of the other end. Remember: carp have no stomach, just a long intestinal tube. In any event, its walls must very elastic given what else carp can swallow - swan mussels, crayfish and the like - and I really cannot envisage how nuts could absorb water in the fish's guts and thereby kill it. (I've been as guilty as anyone in repeating this myth in the past until I took the time to check out the facts, such as there are any).

 



There IS a potential problem with peanuts contaminated by toxic fungi, notably when they release aflatoxins, which can poison most animals that eat them, including birds and humans. Nuts are screened for aflatoxins before importation, although I'm not sure if any can still get through. Cooking nuts removes the possibility of poisoning.



 

To the best of my knowledge, uncooked tiger nuts are not toxic per se. Like the cooked version, carp will often eat them so quickly that they fail to crush them with their throat teeth, resulting in the whole nuts passing through the tube and out of the other end, unaffected. It wouldn't surprise me one bit if the nuts are then eaten by other carp and the process repeated!


* I'm quoting his email without permission here, so I won't name any names. He's probably known to most on here though.

[Newt]

However, there is one danger associated with any bait, and that is the effect that excessive amounts used in an over-ambitious pre-baiting programme will have on the water itself.

 

Well, since the section I was prebaiting was on a 5300 acre lake with over 140 miles of shoreline and current (dams at both ends and decent water flow through the lake), I don't think there was any significant danger of my overbaiting the lake. :D

[Vagabond]

Well, since the section I was prebaiting was on a 5300 acre lake with over 140 miles of shoreline and current (dams at both ends and decent water flow through the lake), I don't think there was any significant danger of my overbaiting the lake.

 

True, but cast your mind back to the little pond I took you to where you caught your first tench. It has produced tench up to six pounds so it is not just a "tiddler pond".

 

How much pre-baiting do you think that particular pond would stand ?

 

Its all a matterof balance and common sense - and even the open ocean has limits of how much organic matter can be dumped in it without some deleterious effect.

[RPM]

True, but cast your mind back to the little pond I took you to where you caught your first tench. It has produced tench up to six pounds so it is not just a "tiddler pond".

 

How much pre-baiting do you think that particular pond would stand ?

 

Its all a matterof balance and common sense - and even the open ocean has limits of how much organic matter can be dumped in it without some deleterious effect.

 

Whilst I cant back up my assumptions with any scientific fact, I would assume that the worst that could happen in baiting would be an increase in the micro organisms that would feed on the inevitable increase in fungus and bacteria which would breed on the new organic matter. These micro organisms would be fed upon by invertebrates which in turn would feed the fish/waterfoul/insect carnivores. This assumes that the fish dont hoover up the bait first.

 

Many bacteria do release toxic compounds though which might cause an issue but not my area of expertise.

 

The natural world has a incredible talent for coping providing the pollution (increased over baiting, perhaps) isnt directly toxic.

[Vagabond]

Whilst I cant back up my assumptions with any scientific fact, I would assume that the worst that could happen in baiting would be an increase in the micro organisms that would feed on the inevitable increase in fungus and bacteria which would breed on the new organic matter. These micro organisms would be fed upon by invertebrates which in turn would feed the fish/waterfoul/insect carnivores.

 

That's a fine piece of armchair theorising - but hasn't it occurred to you that long, long before all this works its way through the food pyramid, the bacteria working on the excess organic matter will have used up a lot of oxygen ?

 

There was a case only a day or two ago of farm silage getting into a water and causing fish deaths due to oxygen depletion. Have a look at it, it should still be on page 1 or 2 of this forum. Rotting excess groundbait will have the same effect as silage - maybe not enough to kill the fish, but perhaps enough to put them off feed and move them out of that swim. OK if only one swim is affected, but what if lots of anglers in lots of swims........

 

....and why do you think many commercial fisheries go to the trouble and expense of installing aerators ? I will tell you. Because they operate on a knife edge of enough oxygen to keep their fish alive in the fish, groundbait, processed meat, sweetcorn and boilie stew that they charge you to fish in.

 

Small ponds (like many club waters and many commercials) plus lots of anglers over-groundbaiting is becoming increasingly common - probably because of the relentless stream of magic baits, magic groundbaits, and the propaganda that goes with them convinces the gullible that the solution to their inability to catch is to put more bait in - maybe no fish deaths if you are lucky, but not an environment I choose to fish in.

[Phone]

Sportsman,

 

I believe in capsicum as an attractant. Often it isn't needed because the fish are already in the swim. Capsicum has such a long range that if two or more anglers are using the same thing they "offset" the positive benefits. Equally, I like the idea that the hookbait and the ground bait are slightly or uniquely different. It is often just a matter of angler confidence (flavoring) and participation

 

All,

 

On the related matter, baiting at all. Certainly I am not an expert on UK waters. Like Newt, I occasionally bait in 10,000 - 20,000 acre lakes. I do recall my trip to the UK in 1976 where a pond was carefully emptied, the fish removed to a holding pond, and a meter of lucheon meat was removed off the bottom with a backhoe.

 

It is difficult (impossible) for me to say from my own experience if carp can survive on a single source of protein. I think they probably can. The aqua culture carp as a food sourec industry uses exactly the same formula for the 30 month cycle before harvest. For example, peanuts are 26.5 - 27.0% protein. Carp may not grow as fast but if the water wasn't fouled by irresponsible feeding practices I bet they would work. The problem as I see it from arms length here in the US is that UK anglers collectively are overwhelming the total biomass. No one guy especially but collectively.

 

My carp will/would re-consume corn from a deposit granary. The water never fouled and circumstances on the Mississippi River could never be duplicated in the UK. Carp - sure enough - can pass food almost without a hint of digestion. Especially in water below 72 f. In winter, when water temperatures drop below 50 f. carp can digest between 5 - 7% of what they consume. That's not much. In fact, not enough to sustain life. Carp at lower temperatures are not attracted to food sources but to warm water. What the injest is a matter of instinct and is done so by chance.

 

Phone

[Phone]

All,

 

A "little story" on tiger nuts. Yellow Sedge, the source of tiger nuts grows wild over here. As small rivers make "cut banks" the nuts are exposed in the root system of the Yellow Sedge plants. The carp dig holes, sometime with there heads out of the water, to harvest the wild tiger nuts. It's fun to watch.

 

Phone

(ps: I rarely use tiger nuts since I place most (all) my bait directly on the hook. Tiger nuts are handy if you use a hair.) I've not had much luck with tiger nut paste. Could be me, I don't have a lot of confidence in them ground up.