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Pikeing without trebles


chezz

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Chezz,

 

Myabe you should re-read post #1 as well. I hate to doubt a new poster but I doubt the cause of death was a treble in the gut. I suspect it was a fish hook in the gut. You jump to so many conclusions in post #1 I forgot to welcome you to the forum.

 

I thought we had established we, anglers, kill fish for sport. We try to return as many as possible alive for selfish reasons - to be caught again and again but we choose to continue to fish and we continue to kill a few fish for angling pleasure.

That's what we do.

They are just fish.

It is not a religious experience.

 

Phone

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Chezz,

 

Myabe you should re-read post #1 as well. I hate to doubt a new poster but I doubt the cause of death was a treble in the gut. I suspect it was a fish hook in the gut. You jump to so many conclusions in post #1 I forgot to welcome you to the forum.

 

I thought we had established we, anglers, kill fish for sport. We try to return as many as possible alive for selfish reasons - to be caught again and again but we choose to continue to fish and we continue to kill a few fish for angling pleasure.

That's what we do.

They are just fish.

It is not a religious experience.

 

Phone

Thanks for the welcome mate, sadly it was a treble I had to extract it after they had pulled and poked,.
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I am never sure whether the use of singles and more so circles is for the welfare of the angler and not the welfare of the Pike. I use both trebles, singles and double hooks as much for presentation as any other reason. However I have come across some anglers who use singles and promote the use of circles (Not pointing at you chezz) more because they do not want to risk any cuts and scrathes.

 

It might just be a coincidence but many photos of caught Pike I have seen of those championing circles often have gloves on. What's all that about?

What ever hooks you go for, you need to be able to convidently handle fish and be able to extract hooks from inside the mouth. Circles and more importantly the constant preaching that circles never deep hook encourages those who are not confident and maybe even a little scared of Pike to fish for them expecting to never have to deal with a deep hooked fish or need to know how to handle Pike.

 

I think circles give false confidence to some anglers and no matter how many times I read circles never deep hook, they do. It might not happend often but when it does happen for those who are only Piking because it is easier with cirlces soon come unstuck when they need to roll out a deep hooked circle.

Stephen

 

Species Caught 2014

Zander, Pike, Bream, Roach, Tench, Perch, Rudd, Common Carp, Mirror Carp, Eel, Grayling, Brown Trout, Rainbow Trout

Species Caught 2013

Pike, Zander, Bream, Roach, Eel, Tench, Rudd, Perch, Common Carp, Koi Carp, Brown Goldfish, Grayling, Brown Trout, Chub, Roosterfish, Dorado, Black Grouper, Barracuda, Mangrove Snapper, Mutton Snapper, Jack Crevalle, Tarpon, Red Snapper

Species Caught 2012
Zander, Pike, Perch, Chub, Ruff, Gudgeon, Dace, Minnow, Wels Catfish, Common Carp, Mirror Carp, Ghost Carp, Roach, Bream, Eel, Rudd, Tench, Arapaima, Mekong Catfish, Sawai Catfish, Marbled Tiger Catfish, Amazon Redtail Catfish, Thai Redtail Catfish, Batrachian Walking Catfish, Siamese Carp, Rohu, Julliens Golden Prize Carp, Giant Gourami, Java Barb, Red Tailed Tin Foil Barb, Nile Tilapia, Black Pacu, Red Bellied Pacu, Alligator Gar
Species Caught 2011
Zander, Tench, Bream, Chub, Barbel, Roach, Rudd, Grayling, Brown Trout, Salmon Parr, Minnow, Pike, Eel, Common Carp, Mirror Carp, Ghost Carp, Koi Carp, Crucian Carp, F1 Carp, Blue Orfe, Ide, Goldfish, Brown Goldfish, Comet Goldfish, Golden Tench, Golden Rudd, Perch, Gudgeon, Ruff, Bleak, Dace, Sergeant Major, French Grunt, Yellow Tail Snapper, Tom Tate Grunt, Clown Wrasse, Slippery Dick Wrasse, Doctor Fish, Graysby, Dusky Squirrel Fish, Longspine Squirrel Fish, Stripped Croaker, Leather Jack, Emerald Parrot Fish, Red Tail Parrot Fish, White Grunt, Bone Fish
Species Caught 2010
Zander, Pike, Perch, Eel, Tench, Bream, Roach, Rudd, Mirror Carp, Common Carp, Crucian Carp, Siamese Carp, Asian Redtail Catfish, Sawai Catfish, Rohu, Amazon Redtail Catfish, Pacu, Long Tom, Moon Wrasse, Sergeant Major, Green Damsel, Tomtate Grunt, Sea Chub, Yellowtail Surgeon, Black Damsel, Blue Dot Grouper, Checkered Sea Perch, Java Rabbitfish, One Spot Snapper, Snubnose Rudderfish
Species Caught 2009
Barramundi, Spotted Sorubim Catfish, Wallago Leeri Catfish, Wallago Attu Catfish, Amazon Redtail Catfish, Mrigul, Siamese Carp, Java Barb, Tarpon, Wahoo, Barracuda, Skipjack Tuna, Bonito, Yellow Eye Rockfish, Red Snapper, Mangrove Snapper, Black Fin Snapper, Dog Snapper, Yellow Tail Snapper, Marble Grouper, Black Fin Tuna, Spanish Mackerel, Mutton Snapper, Redhind Grouper, Saddle Grouper, Schoolmaster, Coral Trout, Bar Jack, Pike, Zander, Perch, Tench, Bream, Roach, Rudd, Common Carp, Golden Tench, Wels Catfish
Species Caught 2008
Dorado, Wahoo, Barracuda, Bonito, Black Fin Tuna, Long Tom, Sergeant Major, Red Snapper, Black Damsel, Queen Trigga Fish, Red Grouper, Redhind Grouper, Rainbow Wrasse, Grey Trigger Fish, Ehrenbergs Snapper, Malabar Grouper, Lunar Fusiler, Two Tone Wrasse, Starry Dragonet, Convict Surgeonfish, Moonbeam Dwarf Angelfish,Bridled Monocle Bream, Redlined Triggerfish, Cero Mackeral, Rainbow Runner
Species Caught 2007
Arapaima, Alligator Gar, Mekong Catfish, Spotted Sorubim Catfish, Pacu, Siamese Carp, Barracuda, Black Fin Tuna, Queen Trigger Fish, Red Snapper, Yellow Tail Snapper, Honeycomb Grouper, Red Grouper, Schoolmaster, Cubera Snapper, Black Grouper, Albacore, Ballyhoo, Coney, Yellowfin Goatfish, Lattice Spinecheek

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I think circles give false confidence to some anglers and no matter how many times I read circles never deep hook, they do. It might not happend often but when it does happen for those who are only Piking because it is easier with cirlces soon come unstuck when they need to roll out a deep hooked circle.

 

This has happened to me. I tried circles for perch when using little livebaits, as they can really wolf baits down quickly. The experiment was brought to a premature end after I missed a run at a water where you really can't afford to miss bites, and then deep-hooked a medium sized perch at another river. I couldn't get the circle out, and the perch died.

 

(And yes, I was 'striking' properly for circles!)

 

I've done a fair bit of perch fishing since then using size 4 or size 6 singles and haven't deep-hooked any.

 

With pike I can't see any reason for me to use anything other than trebles. Anything else would be trying to solve a problem that, for me, doesn't exist.

And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music

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Circle hooks are a topic that comes up regularly on this forum.

 

My own experience with circles for pike is relatively limited, but they've cost me several good fish and so I abandoned them fairly quickly. See for instance this topic that shows a number of examples where trebles outfished circles for me, with one 20lb+ pike probably being missed on a circle and caught on a treble: http://www.anglersnet.co.uk/forums/Wingham...l&hl=circle.

 

I've had over 35 years pike fishing experience and tried just about every hooking arrangement, including doing long term head to head comparisons. Like many old hands I keep coming back to the twin treble Jardine snap tackle as the most efficient. The main difference from Jardine is that I use semi-barbless hooks.

 

Unlike many pikers though I prefer the top treble to be sliding as I've found that this hooks a few more pike, plus it's easy to accommodate different size baits. I'm in the minority here, but there are some well-known and experienced pikers who have found the same.

 

One of the secrets is to use the 49 strand wire that Chezz mentioned earlier. There's nothing new about this; as far as I know I was the first to sell it in the UK, but this was about the mid-90s and it had been used abroad for a few years before that. The American Fishing Wire that Chezz referred to was marketed as Wonder Wire by my successor at Caliber after I retired, but the earlier Wonder Wire that I sold was from a different source.

 

49 strand wire is so supple and kinkproof that you can't twist it. Rather you have to knot or crimp it. Although it costs more per metre it lasts far, far longer than 7 strand wire, and so in the end works out less expensive. In particular it means that sliding snap tackles don't kink nearly as easily as with 7 strand wire.

 

Most importantly its kink-resistance means it's safer for the pike. In fact for many years I've never had any use whatsoever for old-fashioned 7 strand wire.

 

Phone: many thanks for the link to the mortality study. I've found this so interesting that I've bookmarked it. Having said that I wonder what difference it would make if the takes were struck rather than the hooks being on set lines (that are illegal in freshwater in the UK)?

 

Finally, I applaud any pike angler's attempt to improve safety. Circles aren't for me, although I'll continue to experiment with them if I miss takes on trebles. I would though encourage everyone to experiment for themselves rather than just rely on the experience of others, including me. This is one thing that will definitely make you a better angler.

 

Edit note: In my 35 years experience I can recall deeply-hooking just 3 pike. One was on a lure and that one I killed and the family ate. The other 2 were safely returned. It's easy to take the hooks out if you know what you're doing.

 

I'd suggest that what hooks you use aren't a major problem. Rather it's leaving runs too long, not watching your indicators properly (especially floats), or having poor bite indication in the first place. Some of the worst culprits here are those boat anglers who don't use surface floats at anchor. The latter problem is a pet hate of mine! :angry:

Edited by Steve Burke

Wingham Specimen Coarse & Carp Syndicates www.winghamfisheries.co.uk Beautiful, peaceful, little fished gravel pit syndicates in Kent with very big fish. 2017 Forum Fish-In Sat May 6 to Mon May 8. Articles http://www.anglersnet.co.uk/steveburke.htm Index of all my articles on Angler's Net

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Steve, id never question/undermine your experience but when you make traces with a sliding top treble is it fixed in position later, once you adjust it for the bait ?

 

With 49 strand wire you can knot it to fix it in position if you like.

 

However I don't as I actually want it to slide. I do put shrink tube on the shank of the top hook though so that it doesn't slide too freely. There's also then no need to twist the wire round the shank, and it's this that causes a lot of the kinking.

 

One of the ideas behind the sliding hook is that if the point of one hook hits bone and doesn't go in then the other hook will slide and may well find a purchase. With a fixed rig both hooks will stay put and if the first point of contact is bone none of the 6 points will penetrate properly. Barrie Rickards emphasised this in a number of his books.

 

Additionally, if a pike takes the bait between the two trebles so that they're both outside the mouth one can slide into the lips on the strike. This is hard to put into words but is well-illustrated on pages 50 and 51 of Bill Chillingworth's book "Tactics for Big Pike". With a fixed snap tackle you'd have to wait for the pike to turn the bait, always assuming it does so and doesn't reject it. Such a delay increases the risk of deep-hooking of course. On the other hand with the sliding rig I can immediately wind down to the fish and set the hooks.

 

Not many modern pikers use a sliding snap tackle (although Leon does). Many don't because it can kink old-fashioned 7 strand wire, meaning for safety reasons the trace would have to be discarded, and that means having to make up and carry more traces, let alone the expense of replacing them. However this problem is hugely reduced when using 49 strand wire. I must confess that it was using 49 strand wire that triggered the change for me, before then I mainly used a fixed rig.

 

Some say that the disadvantage of a sliding treble is that it absorbs some of the strike. That may be right, but the change to 49 strand wire prompted me to do controlled experiments comparing fixed and sliding snap tackles to see which factors were more important. The result was that the sliding snap tackles had a greater hook-up rate. It's not massively better, but is enough to put extra pike on the bank, and that for me is what counts.

 

Of course it's also easy to adjust to different size baits, and I find that less baits come off on the cast as you can put the hooks exactly where you want to get the best hold. So it also saves time and money replacing baits.

Edited by Steve Burke

Wingham Specimen Coarse & Carp Syndicates www.winghamfisheries.co.uk Beautiful, peaceful, little fished gravel pit syndicates in Kent with very big fish. 2017 Forum Fish-In Sat May 6 to Mon May 8. Articles http://www.anglersnet.co.uk/steveburke.htm Index of all my articles on Angler's Net

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