Navigation Rights continued

[andy_youngs]

I asked for my topic to be closed andy because it went personal. .Unfortunately I made the mistake of being dragged in. As opposed to keeping to the known facts.

I'll try not to make the same mistake again. It's relevant though because I reckon the Recreational Sea Anglers have got quite a bit in common with Canoe England at the moment. I do a bit of sea fishing, and I'd like to join the RSA, but I won't if they're affiliated to AT. It's all very confusing.

The AT's latest letter to Canoe England strikes me as akin to trying to put a fire out with petrol.

[Sportsman]

They can acknowledge it existence without wanting to encourage it.

I have no axe to grind in the UK anymore. I don't live there.

When I did live i Scotland all of my personal experience of canoeists on rivers were negative.

You seem to want to portray canoeists as these gentle people, slipping silently down the river, disturbing no-one and causing no upset.

The reality is a bunch of thugs screaming and shouting to each other, abusing other users, coming ashore on private property, lighting fires and leaving litter. Parking your cars and trailers on private property, blocking field gateways and generally showing no respect for anyone or anything.

Maybe you will be granted greater access when you demonstrate that you deserve it.

[andy_youngs]

Ok Andy we will leave out the bit were you use your canoe to trespass, party and light fires on other peoples land if it makes you feel better.

 

When did the private land owners give the waterways to the citizens?

I've never partied and lit fires on other peoples property without their permission. I wish you wouldn't misrepresent me in public like that (complaint to the mod, please caution this person).

 

You ask when did private land owners give the waterways to the citizens. My understanding is that the landowners never owned them in the first place. But they tried to claim them them as such in 1830

[andy_youngs]

They can acknowledge it existence without wanting to encourage it.

I have no axe to grind in the UK anymore. I don't live there.

When I did live i Scotland all of my personal experience of canoeists on rivers were negative.

You seem to want to portray canoeists as these gentle people, slipping silently down the river, disturbing no-one and causing no upset.

The reality is a bunch of thugs screaming and shouting to each other, abusing other users, coming ashore on private property, lighting fires and leaving litter. Parking your cars and trailers on private property, blocking field gateways and generally showing no respect for anyone or anything.

Maybe you will be granted greater access when you demonstrate that you deserve it.

Oh sportsman, that's just a vitriolic outpouring. You've labled canoeists as a bnunch of environmental thugs who are intent on wreaking havoc upon the countrysite, but it's not true.

[Phone]

andy_y,

 

I'm not being controntational, at least not trying. I have never received a "good or bad" answer to the word "raparian" as it applies in the UK. The EA and dictionalry says, """"Law. a person who owns land on the bank of a natural watercourse or body of water."""" The EA (in 2013) says the UK has "Raparian owners" aside from what the EA says (which is full and total responsibility execpt as noted). What does that mean (to you and canoests). I don't know how it could be more clear??

 

Also, you are as bad as your accusors. You respond to Sportsman with, "it's not true". You sure? 100%? Maybe you would change that statement to the "majority"? Should that be true - how many irresponsible canoes does it take to turn 150 shorebound anglers into anti-furnaces.

 

Phone

[barry luxton]

according to what's below, the uk is left behind in it's dinosaur approach to this modern err problem of access, where everyone else including Scotland have simplified access. Whats the difference with uk waters that makes it soo difficult, Same question I have asked previously.

 

In the England and Wales the canoeist does not have an automatic right to launch on to any river. The legal situation is different from all other countries in the world, where canoeists are generally able to paddle large and small non-tidal rivers without seeking permission, as the beds of these rivers are not privately owned and not vested in riparian owners.

The Government commissioned report "Water-Based Sport and Recreation – the facts" published in December 2001 established -

• There are 4,540 kilometres of canal and rivers with navigation rights.
• There are in excess of 65,000 kilometres of rivers with NO ACCESS
• Successive governments have encouraged canoeist to seek to negotiate access
• agreements. These have only achieved 812 kilometres of highly restricted access.
• Canoeing is a clean physical activity enjoyed by over two million people each year
• causing no damage and minimal disturbance.
• Canoeing is also a sport, which delivers Olympic and international medals.
• Canoeing is a sport and recreational activity for all regardless of age or ability

Scotland

In Scotland the Land Reform (Scotland) Act 2003 comprehensively codified into Scots law the ancient tradition of the right to universal access to the land in Scotland. The act specifically establishes a right to be on land for recreational, educational and certain other purposes and a right to cross land. The rights exist only if they are exercised responsibly, as specified in the Scottish Outdoor Access Code.

Access rights apply to any non-motorised activities, including walking, cycling, horse-riding and wild camping. They also allow access on inland water for canoeing, rowing, sailing and swimming.

Edited August 11, 2013 by barry luxton

[Sportsman]

Oh sportsman, that's just a vitriolic outpouring. You've labled canoeists as a bnunch of environmental thugs who are intent on wreaking havoc upon the countrysite, but it's not true.

That vitriolic outpouring was based on my own personal experience and the experience of friends who are generally farmers, gamekeepers and ghillies in Scotland.

This is what happens on rivers like the North Esk on a weekend. Its called reality.

[Leon Roskilly]

I reckon the Recreational Sea Anglers have got quite a bit in common with Canoe England ............

 

I guess that would change quickly if bunches of canoes surrounded charter-boats and piers, splashing and larking about in front of anglers, tangling lines etc (And as sea-anglers get a much better understanding of the problems that freshwater anglers endure).

 

 

Fortunately the sea is a big place, unlike the more intimate waters where freshwater anglers fish.

 

 

Kayak angling is well able to co-exist with existing sea-angling activities and is one of the fastest growing sectors of sea-angling, encouraged by the Angling Trust. (see http://www.anglingtrust.net/page.asp?section=646 ).

 

(And for freshwater kayak anglers, AT Kayak membership also includes access to river and canal areas not controlled by clubs at reduced rates - see link above)

 

 

 

The same sort of conflict would arise if (say) an archery club was invaded by a gang of folk kicking a ball about on the range, or a game of cricket interrupted by golfers playing through on the pitch during a game.

 

Kayakers enjoying a quite paddle when a group of jet-skiers decides to play. (Opening the 'free-access' genie could backfire spectacularly!)

 

Some activities just don't mix well.

Edited August 11, 2013 by Leon Roskilly

[barry luxton]

(Opening the 'free-access' genie could backfire spectacularly!)

 

appears that the rest of the world including Scotland do not share the same opinion.

 

In the England and Wales the canoeist does not have an automatic right to launch on to any river. The legal situation is different from all other countries in the world, where canoeists are generally able to paddle large and small non-tidal rivers without seeking permission, as the beds of these rivers are not privately owned and not vested in riparian owners.

[Phone]

All,

 

Once again I'll ask. Is this not "current law"? It was published in 2012 and ammended in 2013.

 

http://www.environment-agency.gov.uk/homeandleisure/floods/31626.aspx

 

Phone