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Dodgy Logic


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This year I am intending to do more sessions for big fish and as this is a style of fishing that I don't have a great deal of experience at I have been doing some research, reading articles and watching videos,

Most of what I have turned up has been aimed at carp but may apply to other species. Some of the stuff that has turned up has been based on pretty shaky logic, but maybe I'm missing something.

 

Slack line bite indication.

This was recommended to avoid having a tight line going through the swim that would spook fish (more on that later)

It was claimed that if the line from the lead to the rod tip was tight the the mono would be slightly stretched. If the fish moved the bait then the line would continue to stretch until it had stretched to its limit before any movement of the bobbin occurred.

If the line was slack, with no stretch then movement of the bait would be transferred immediately through the slack line to the bobbin.

I tried it and it doesn't work for me. What am I missing?

 

Visible line in swim

Some very good underwater filming showed that line going through the swim was visible from close to. It was claimed that this visible line would scare away fish as their learned behaviour would associate the appearance of line with getting caught. Now I would have thought that the fish would see the line very differently to us and would not say the carp equivalent of "look, that's fishing line"

I would also have thought that their learned behaviour would suggest to them that it is a bad idea to eat small round balls.

 

It was recommended that the only bait worth using was boilies because "most carp are caught on boilies, that's why everyone uses them"

You could of cause say most carp anglers use boilies, that's why most carp are caught on them.

 

It was also suggested that boilies become more effective after a day or two in the water when they get washed out. This is because fresh boilies send a warning signal to the carp but the carp have learned to associate washed out boilies with discarded "safe" bait.

Doesn't that suggest then that anglers are intentionally using bait that they expect the carp to avoid?

 

Then the never ending boilie recipes. Apparently the clever carp can tell if the boilie has been prepared to give them a properly balanced nutritious meal with all of the correct amounts of vitamins, minerals, proteins, carbs and fats and they know this just by smelling / tasting a rock hard small ball. I am assured that if I don't get the nutrition right the carp will ignore my bait. One recipe I read had 17 ingredients with 3% of this and 7% of that. Another cautioned against too much fat as it could raise the carp's cholesterol?

Make you wonder how plastic corn works really

 

One expert claimed in the same paragraph that carp don't feed by site, it is all down to smell and also that pink fluoro pop ups were the most effective. I wonder what pink smells like,

 

Lastly the old chestnut that improperly prepared particles will swell up inside the fish and kill them.

 

All of this stuff is all over the interweb and being promoted by some very well known names. I have a feeling that most of it is aimed at anglers wallets rather than a desire to offer advice but it is hard to separate the good advice from the bad sometimes.

Am I missing something?

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Let's agree to respect each others views, no matter how wrong yours may be.

 

 

Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity

 

 

 

http://www.safetypublishing.co.uk/
http://www.safetypublishing.ie/

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It was claimed that if the line from the lead to the rod tip was tight the the mono would be slightly stretched If the fish moved the bait then the line would continue to stretch until it had stretched to its limit before any movement of the bobbin occurred.

If the line was slack, with no stretch then movement of the bait would be transferred immediately through the slack line to the bobbin.

I tried it and it doesn't work for me. What am I missing?

This has to be nonsense.

 

How many pounds of pull does it take to fully stretch a mono line of say 8lb b/s?

 

About 90% of a lines b/s pulled will see it stretched enough to reduce the b/s by about 5%, that's a lot more than it takes to move a bobbin, unless the bobbin weighs a few pounds.

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This has to be nonsense.

 

How many pounds of pull does it take to fully stretch a mono line of say 8lb b/s?

 

About 90% of a lines b/s pulled will see it stretched enough to reduce the b/s by about 5%, that's a lot more than it takes to move a bobbin, unless the bobbin weighs a few pounds.

 

Does it stretch at all under the amount of force that it takes to move a bobin?

 

It's not about stretch.

 

If the line is pulled tight to a lead, the fish feels that tension as soon as it moves off. Fine for carp on a bolt rig but not good for other species.

I don't do a huge amount of big fish bait fishing but when I do, I will ofen pull the line straight and then leave it just a little loose. No fish spooked by swimming into a tight line, less dropped bites and no line hum in moving water.

 

As for the boilies and particles thing, presumably a lot of those offering advice sell or endorse pre-preared baits.......

Species caught in 2020: Barbel. European Eel. Bleak. Perch. Pike.

Species caught in 2019: Pike. Bream. Tench. Chub. Common Carp. European Eel. Barbel. Bleak. Dace.

Species caught in 2018: Perch. Bream. Rainbow Trout. Brown Trout. Chub. Roach. Carp. European Eel.

Species caught in 2017: Siamese carp. Striped catfish. Rohu. Mekong catfish. Amazon red tail catfish. Arapaima. Black Minnow Shark. Perch. Chub. Brown Trout. Pike. Bream. Roach. Rudd. Bleak. Common Carp.

Species caught in 2016: Siamese carp. Jullien's golden carp. Striped catfish. Mekong catfish. Amazon red tail catfish. Arapaima. Alligator gar. Rohu. Black Minnow Shark. Roach, Bream, Perch, Ballan Wrasse. Rudd. Common Carp. Pike. Zander. Chub. Bleak.

Species caught in 2015: Brown Trout. Roach. Bream. Terrapin. Eel. Barbel. Pike. Chub.

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The right/slack line thing is partly true but you need very light bobbins for it to work properly. You can get very good indications with slack line and light indicators, much more so than tight line and heavy indicators.

 

Lines cutting through the water can and do make cute fish edgy. Who knows what they actually think of them, but in a lot of cases they don't like them. I'd do what you can to keep the line on the bottom out of the way.

 

Some waters do respond very well to boilies, some don't. As for all the recipes, well the hunt has been on for the ultimate bait for decades now and it hasn't happened yet...

 

Plastic corn works best when you've got the fish feeding well, sucking up anything they can.

 

Can't hurt to prepare particles properly.

 

My view is: time taken exploring the water and deciding exactly where to fish is never wasted; accurate baiting and casting will be rewarded; bait with plenty of attraction and little food content, and a lot of different sized/coloured/density bits; start off by fishing all day and all night.

And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music

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I read a lot of books, stuff that was written yesterday as well as stuff that was written many years ago, and it's no suprise to realise that to a very large extent, the same issues are re-hashed and regurgitated, time and time again.

The slack line thing had me baffled to begin with. I could see the logic behind fish being spooked by running into a line stretched tightly through the water, but looking at that aspect alone, I questioned the liklihood of it happening in the first place?

There is probably little doubt that it does occur on occasion; I would hazard a guess that it's very much more likely to occur in a lake where muliple carp anglers are fishing with mutiple rods creating something akin to a cats cradle in the water ... but I'd also assume that for any specific fish to hit an isolated line in a swim is quite rare, no?

But, using slack lines was offered as a solution, regardless of whether the problem existed outside the mind of the angler in-situ, and it was reading 'anecdotal' books, rather than 'how-to' ones that allowed the penny to drop, I think.

Now; I've NEVER used a bolt-rig in my life; on the odd occasion that I feel compelled to offer a legered bait I'm very old-school, and will touch-leger - if I cannot do that for whatever reason, I'll find a different way to achieve my aim. I say that to help qualify what I'm about to say; if I'm legering, I'm concentrating. I'm not waitng for an alarm to tell me I've got a bite, nor waiting for a fish to hook itself; I'm consciously monitoring the line for bites .......

Slack-line indication has been around for years, well before the current crop of 'experts' started banging on about it and passing it off as their latest pet theory ... but it was typically used in very specific situations, namely still water, littel or no breeze, and (usually) extremely finicky fish ... and the way the technique was (sucessfully) used was to watch (for movement) at the point where the line enters the water, below the rod tip; naff-all use if you're tucked up cosy in a bivvy, but very effective if you really wanted to catch those bloody awkward fish ... no bobbins or alarms, just eyesight and concentration ... and invariably, it was a very effective technique.

 

Particle preparation? No idea, TBH - shovelling in bait like that has never been my way - not knocking it you understand, it simply doesn't suit the way I enjoy my fishing.

 

Boilies of every size, shape, colour and flavour? Sure, they catch fish ... and in many cases make not-so-small fortunes for the bait companies concerned ... but if every carp angler out there fished exclusively with worms, maggots and bread, there would still be massive numbers of fish caught ... I've always believed that some of them would be the bigger, more elusive fish too ... the ones that have already seen every man-made bait in existence, and are maybe understandably wary of them.

 

The thing that always makes me laugh is that every bait company has their own pet 'celebrity' anglers who will bang on relentlessly about how brilliant the current offering is, and how it empties waters up and down the country, yet; if that same angler was to jump ships for whatever reason (or is pushed, as has happened very recently to at least one very high profile carpy), he immediately starts using the new 'wonderbait' rather than stick with what was apparently the ONLY bait worth using a day earlier.

I guess money talks, and certain sections of the carping fraternity seem to have more of that commodity than common sense, no?

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I don't believe you can have a truly slackline, most of the time water has movement, obviously in rivers, but undertow in lakes. Any movement will cause the line to 'tighten' eventually, and a fish feels the resistance of the water against the line when it moves off with the bait. The only time you get a slack line is when you fish with a downstream bow, and a balanced weight/bait, that will move with the flow at the slightest movement of the bait.

Whether a fish is spooked by seeing line, or even touching it, i have my doubts, fish swim into weed, floating sticks, etc all the time, they would be the aquatic equivalent of nervous wrecks if they spooked every time it happened.

 

John.

Angling is more than just catching fish, if it wasn't it would just be called 'catching'......... John

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I've seen underwater footage of line in a fairly clear pond, and after five mins or so being in there it's covered in particles and fluffy bits and bobs anyway and looks almost exactly like an underwater reed or whatever.

I doubt fish see line like that and spook.

I've seen fish turn if they hit line in the water and I've watched fish in rivers turn away from presented baits at the last instant, but I doubt they reacted to the line as much as flash of the hook of something odd in how the bait moved in the flow.

Slack line? Surely this leads to slower bite indication? The fish has to pick up the slack before any indication is shown on the bank? Not for me certainly.

As for Boilies....caught hundreds of carp and I can honestly hand on heart say not a single one has been caught on a boilie!

Bread, maggot, luncheon meat, pellet, corn, worm, jelly pellet etc....but never a boilie. In fact I've never even been tempted to buy Boilies...let alone use them!

Carp feeding by scent? Almost certainly...especially in muddy puddles...you can see how bad their eye sight can be if you surface fish....even watching feeding koi you can see plainly they miss offered surface offerings and have to gulp along til they get them...if they had good vision that wouldn't be the case I don't think. So smell and taste are hugely important.

Good particles or ground bait etc will do just as well as some vibrantly coloured exotically flavoured boilie pile!

My preference is halibut feed pellets fed in then fished over with chosen bait.

 

Finally....why is session fishing for bigger fish always miles casting away from your swim?

I've caught plenty of big carp from the margins...and I'm pretty certain that most BIG carp will hit the shallows and margins in the same way every other carp does!

If big fish are being "spooked" by over used methods in these venues then the obvious change for me would be to feed a margin area and fish just under my rod tip instead of lobbing out a "tutti fruity zinger twister pop up zombie snowman zig zip hair rigged floppy helicopter rig" to the middle distance! But maybe that's just me

Edited by kirisute
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The main reason that boilies are so popular for Carp session fishing is simply that they give you reassurance that you have a baited hook. If you plan to spend any amount of time out fishing your best chance of catching is if you have a bait on your hook. I know lots of people like to knock fishing with boilies but along with plastic baits they are the best way to guarantee you are really fishing. They are the most reliable baits for staying on and can withstand the attentions of small fish.

 

We all know that Carp can be caught on a thousand and one different baits but other then a chunk of plastic what other bait would you be confident of leaving for 12 or 24 hours with out checking it is still on? I would not dream of session fishing with out boilies or plastic, that does not mean that I will not use and catch on other baits. Maybe I simple minded and fall for all the so called brain washing of the tackle industry, maybe I am just lazy and I don't fancy checking my bait every 30 minutes to ensure it is still on and spooking my swim.

 

Magpies are all to common in most walks of life ans so you will always find those who chase the elusive dream bait and will hop from one bait to another to another in the hope they will find a magic bait but most carp and coarse session anglers will have a small selection of baits they have confidence in.

 

I like to soak my baits in added attraction but am not adverse to using washed out baits, both will work at different times and venues.

 

I am also convinced that pressured fish can spook of lines but for me the key is keeping the last few feet down on the deck via back leads, lead core or what ever other method you like after that I am not that bothered.

Stephen

 

Species Caught 2014

Zander, Pike, Bream, Roach, Tench, Perch, Rudd, Common Carp, Mirror Carp, Eel, Grayling, Brown Trout, Rainbow Trout

Species Caught 2013

Pike, Zander, Bream, Roach, Eel, Tench, Rudd, Perch, Common Carp, Koi Carp, Brown Goldfish, Grayling, Brown Trout, Chub, Roosterfish, Dorado, Black Grouper, Barracuda, Mangrove Snapper, Mutton Snapper, Jack Crevalle, Tarpon, Red Snapper

Species Caught 2012
Zander, Pike, Perch, Chub, Ruff, Gudgeon, Dace, Minnow, Wels Catfish, Common Carp, Mirror Carp, Ghost Carp, Roach, Bream, Eel, Rudd, Tench, Arapaima, Mekong Catfish, Sawai Catfish, Marbled Tiger Catfish, Amazon Redtail Catfish, Thai Redtail Catfish, Batrachian Walking Catfish, Siamese Carp, Rohu, Julliens Golden Prize Carp, Giant Gourami, Java Barb, Red Tailed Tin Foil Barb, Nile Tilapia, Black Pacu, Red Bellied Pacu, Alligator Gar
Species Caught 2011
Zander, Tench, Bream, Chub, Barbel, Roach, Rudd, Grayling, Brown Trout, Salmon Parr, Minnow, Pike, Eel, Common Carp, Mirror Carp, Ghost Carp, Koi Carp, Crucian Carp, F1 Carp, Blue Orfe, Ide, Goldfish, Brown Goldfish, Comet Goldfish, Golden Tench, Golden Rudd, Perch, Gudgeon, Ruff, Bleak, Dace, Sergeant Major, French Grunt, Yellow Tail Snapper, Tom Tate Grunt, Clown Wrasse, Slippery Dick Wrasse, Doctor Fish, Graysby, Dusky Squirrel Fish, Longspine Squirrel Fish, Stripped Croaker, Leather Jack, Emerald Parrot Fish, Red Tail Parrot Fish, White Grunt, Bone Fish
Species Caught 2010
Zander, Pike, Perch, Eel, Tench, Bream, Roach, Rudd, Mirror Carp, Common Carp, Crucian Carp, Siamese Carp, Asian Redtail Catfish, Sawai Catfish, Rohu, Amazon Redtail Catfish, Pacu, Long Tom, Moon Wrasse, Sergeant Major, Green Damsel, Tomtate Grunt, Sea Chub, Yellowtail Surgeon, Black Damsel, Blue Dot Grouper, Checkered Sea Perch, Java Rabbitfish, One Spot Snapper, Snubnose Rudderfish
Species Caught 2009
Barramundi, Spotted Sorubim Catfish, Wallago Leeri Catfish, Wallago Attu Catfish, Amazon Redtail Catfish, Mrigul, Siamese Carp, Java Barb, Tarpon, Wahoo, Barracuda, Skipjack Tuna, Bonito, Yellow Eye Rockfish, Red Snapper, Mangrove Snapper, Black Fin Snapper, Dog Snapper, Yellow Tail Snapper, Marble Grouper, Black Fin Tuna, Spanish Mackerel, Mutton Snapper, Redhind Grouper, Saddle Grouper, Schoolmaster, Coral Trout, Bar Jack, Pike, Zander, Perch, Tench, Bream, Roach, Rudd, Common Carp, Golden Tench, Wels Catfish
Species Caught 2008
Dorado, Wahoo, Barracuda, Bonito, Black Fin Tuna, Long Tom, Sergeant Major, Red Snapper, Black Damsel, Queen Trigga Fish, Red Grouper, Redhind Grouper, Rainbow Wrasse, Grey Trigger Fish, Ehrenbergs Snapper, Malabar Grouper, Lunar Fusiler, Two Tone Wrasse, Starry Dragonet, Convict Surgeonfish, Moonbeam Dwarf Angelfish,Bridled Monocle Bream, Redlined Triggerfish, Cero Mackeral, Rainbow Runner
Species Caught 2007
Arapaima, Alligator Gar, Mekong Catfish, Spotted Sorubim Catfish, Pacu, Siamese Carp, Barracuda, Black Fin Tuna, Queen Trigger Fish, Red Snapper, Yellow Tail Snapper, Honeycomb Grouper, Red Grouper, Schoolmaster, Cubera Snapper, Black Grouper, Albacore, Ballyhoo, Coney, Yellowfin Goatfish, Lattice Spinecheek

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Sometimes the best spot to present a bait is a long way from the margin. If that's where the fish are feeding, that's where your bait needs to be. Simple really! The closer in you can fish the better, but the margins are not always any good.

 

To back up Dales' post, the reason boilies were invented was to avoid being picked apart by small fish. A large part of big fish fishing (for any species, not just carp) is not just trying to catch the fish you do want, but trying to avoid the fish you don't want. If you're looking for one or two opportunities in 24 hours, you need a bait that you can confidently cast out and leave for all that time without worrying that it's disintegrated/been nibbled away. Boilies are one such bait.

Edited by Anderoo

And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music

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