The Taste Of A Hook

[TheMargins]

Anyone of you chaps seen the Korda underwater videos.

 

They are not the be all and end all, but they do provide the viewer with an insight into how carp and tench (the two species caught in the vids) inspect and mouth the bait, not quite as straight-forward as some of you might think!

 

I've watched carp in the margins, as I'm sure some of you have also, they are far from the hoovering pigs with fins that some of you think they are! Sure, when they are in a proper feeding mood, they will do this, but this is only when they are fully confident!

 

So, are they wary of the rigs? Are they wary of the bait? re they wary of the hook? In what way? Could it actually be that they are mouthing the bait and feeling the hook? Or are they mouthing the bait and not feeling the hook, but sense/taste/whatever that they is something there that should'nt be?

 

Its all very well maintaining the attitude that we go fishing, we catch a few fish, and go home happy. But one step further from 'just' that is specimen fishing, it is very often necessary to constantly think about what you are doing and of ways that can bring a fish to the net. It is possible with specimen fishing for big carp for example, that one may blank on a particular water for a year - this is not uncommon! Its no good relying on a 'pub chuck' and hoping for the best. You have to try all sorts!

[Peter Waller]

I have watched numerous pike in the same situation. They may be the fearsom feeder, but they can be incredibly cautious, far more so than most pikers realise.

 

Blank for a year! I'd give up and move.

[Guest rabbit]

Havn't we missed something here Dont fish and most other animals learn by association? Pike would know what a natural prey would feel like, any other than the the expected sensation would alert the fish and the fish would attempt to eject the bait / lure, be it an alien smell feel texture or whatever.

 

This is angling and it happens in all the anglling disciplines. So smell would be just one factor the fish will consider. I would have thought that by the time the pike has recognised its mistake it surely is too late the hooks would be set. I dont see how a pike can sample a bait/lure to sense any metal, without a protuding tongue, which I believe it does not have Or perhaps the taste receptors are ouside the head?

 

Its just fishing..... to overcome all the above, always has been and always will, (hopefully)

[Peter Waller]

If you watch a feeding pike, Rabbit, you will sometimes see them 'blow' a deadbait out. I have also had soft rubbers ejected and the tail has been caught on the mid body hook, suggesting that it has been blown out in that manner.

 

When I say 'blow' I suppose it is done by forcing water out through their mouths. Not fanciful thinking, I have heard this from other anglers too. It must be a naturel, caution thing, but one water I fish, and rarely fish, is only fished by me and my one guest, so it's not in response to 'pressure'.

 

Yes, I believe that pike have taste receptors outside their heads.

 

Back to the 'blowing' thing. A pike will swim backwards, infact I have watched them reverse inbetween reeds, like a parking car. I believe that they do this by water propulsion.

[Guest rabbit]

Peter

I can understand why pike 'blow' out food Peter, I guess if the pike is in 'scavenging' mode then they can afford the extra time with being cautious.

 

On the other hand when the pike attacks a live prey he will not have this time to access, he sees he feels he attacks. Obviously taste has no part in the attack, if it does it would only be after the grab. He may then want to let go but is unable the hooks have done their job.

 

Also, metal hooks have been used by man for say 200 years?? The pike has been evolved for many millions of years, how could the pike possibly have factored in the metal danger in such a short period? Which rather contradicts my association theory.

 

[chesters1]

i hope you dont put starlights in those lures its against the law to use them ok not directly starlights but some jobsworth will try.

were talking of taste but seeing as smell is closely related maybe they can smell before they actually taste it and veer off at the last moment ,mmaaayyybbbbeeee as they have such huge vibration sensors they can detect things we dont understand ,even the sub atomic signatures of things i.e fish aproches lure HMMMM copper ,trace of tin ,little bit of red paint .................RAPALA i'm orf ,if on the otherhand it knows that lure maybe a copper one with a trace of tin and hint of green paint will fool it.

or maybe they can predict the future with small future predicting pits in their head ,you can't prove me wrong

ok i may be a bit silly but i'm now nice and warm now having spent 1/2 an hour unblocking a outfall in 6" of water without wellies and just finished a great cheese and pickle sarnie on uncut crusty bread and a mug of tea

Edited December 3, 2005 by chesters1

[Peter Waller]

Rabbit, I have a good friend who insists on using small hooks when deadbaiting. His theory, and it makes sense, is that when a pike bites down on the deadbait it feels big hooks and is therefore more likely to eject the bait. The hooks might be in the mouth but until a strike is made they are not likely to be doing their job.

 

This bite down factor is one reason that I don't inject huge amounts of oils, feeling that on the bite a sudden gob full of fish oil is not naturel.

 

I don't think that a hook's taste in itself is the problem, more likely the line and the feel of hooks that is not quite naturel.

 

Re lures, there is nothing more unnaturel, but we try to avoid it being ejected, sometimes successfully, sometimes not.

 

Granted that there are times when a pike will feed as if there is no tommorow. I have even seen a pike take a floating Coke can. But there are definately days when pike are incredibly cautious.

[zedhead]

very interesting thread, with some interesting points raised.

Firstly i take the margins point on sensory perception being far removed from that of ours, there are numerous papers investigating various fish species perceptions and sensing abilities, i think that the concept of taste of the hook is somewhat irrelevent and i think that the metallic elements of hooks are probably detectable by carp and the likes, barbs for example can function to detect magnetic ipulses of invertebrates etc by barbel and hooks will certainly emit some magnetic stimuli, as to this being significant enough to deter (it may even attract) carp then i very much doubt it, two tone doesnt seem to mind , niether does the traveller .

Peter, i have stalked pike and have seen them reject baits after initially picking them up, maybe thats through learning or perhaps down to what they fancy, you dont always feel like eating a curry (unless your asian peter), or perhaps the taste of my hook put them off

Also no-one mentioned wire traces, why dont 1 of you hardened carp anglers see if a wire trace makes any difference to how long you have to wait for a run?

Edited December 3, 2005 by zedhead

[chesters1]

a lot of fish just use the reaction stimulus embedded in everything ,maybe they just grab the lure if its close enough on the reaction to food alone ,then realising their not actually hungry drop it ,if your lucky enough to actually hook it fair and good but if the hooks miss then you may be translating it into the fish actually deciding they dont like the taste rather than a natural occurence happening all the time anyway.

weve all caught fish (especially small perch) whose mouths are full of maggots i think they are feeding on the natural instinct of grabbing while its available the same may be true for less annoying fish

Edited December 3, 2005 by chesters1

[zedhead]

certainly fish take the oppertunity to eat the food while its there alteast some of the time but having done an experiment on prey selection, there are many other factors ivolved, eg a famous paper conducted by milinski 1971 found that sticklebacks would only accept food within a safe distance to cover when hungry but when not hungry would ignore food.

as for the difference of lures and baits, lures trigger a response some of the time, some times from hunger and sometimes through annoyance, a deadbait cannot trigger a strike by annoyance, my half makerel was picked up then blown out.