I guess someone has to say it

[peter mccue]

I can sympathise with Jaybees view here (even though as the competition winner with a photo subsequently described as a snapshot fit for deletion, the icing has definately fallen off the cake) because I too felt there was better pictures than mine.

 

However, beyond the technical aspects of a photo, any assessment is indeed subjective, & I think we need to be careful that we don't try to over emphasize the technicalities which would place the podium finishes beyond a lot of the posters. This is an amateur competition amongst (hopefully) friends & IMO the judgment criteria should reflect a fair but reasonably relaxed assessment. If we become too critical, a lot of the enjoyment will be lost & sadly the opportunity to learn from the likes of Jaybee, Rabster, Steve etc may be lost with it.

 

What about having an open vote on all the pictures submitted to gain a winner.

[TubularBelle]

Or should we abandon any idea of judging on technical quality, and simply go by the content and how it meets the criteria...for example, a blurred shot of a Hawk striking its prey is pretty "wild", but a squirrel sitting on a branch, technically perfect is surely not in the sme class? or is it?

 

Den

 

 

 

That was the one comment that didn't sit quite right with me either, while I was lamenting the difference between taking a technically perfect shot of a flower or a blurry shot of a dog flying through the air, I thought Dens two examples were as warranted as each other, because even if a squirrel is sitting perfectly still and practically posing for the camera, it is still an opportunistic shot which you can't just choose to take at any time of the day or night, and therefore just as valid as that of the Hawk striking it's prey. And you would NEVER discredit a photo for being technically perfect no matter how staged (as in photographing a still object) but the technicality of taking a photo of a moving object should be less important and more flexible.

 

 

And while I tried very hard to not be objectionable in my last post, I've thought about this a little more and have to say one more thing. This is NOT a Photography site, it is a Fishing site and there are a myriad of Photography sites for people who want to get more precise about their Photography. Michael (HB) and I just LOVE these Comps because there is enough quality and enthusiasm and structure to them to keep them interesting and ever improving without the pressure of feeling you have to produce perfect photos every time. So while I think there may have been a slight error of judgement with regards to certain photos not being chosen for the final in the previous comp, I think adding the conditions/requirements that you mention would be detrimental to this Competition.

Edited August 28, 2006 by TubularBelle

[Steve Randles]

I would welcome comment either here or in confidence by pm by anyone who has stopped entering for whatever the reason they have. Only by being aware of such things can they be remedied.

 

Steve...

[Guest Jaybee]

Have to come back to this before I crawl up to bed

Tubularbelle I find this comment of yours rather disturbing, not the premise you make it on but the general effect this type of thinking would have on a competition

 

""""""For example, I am not a flower lover, if a comp was entirely about flowers I would have no problems picking a winner but when they are competing against animals for ex in comps such as 'Wildlife and Nature' or 'Flora and Fauna', there would be no chance of a flower getting into the final three if I was the Judge""""

 

Am I to believe that if there was a 50/50 split of flower shots and insect/animal shots then you would select no flowers?

If the flowers shots were all perfectly taken, beautifully composed and lit and all of the insect/animal shots were simply average then still no flowers would be selected for the final three?

Thats rather worrying for anyone who enjoyed photographing flowers and entered one into the competition. Being judged on what you photographed and not how you photographed it AND being beaten before you have even had a chance to win is not how a competition should be judged.

If there was a transport competition and the judge decided he wouldnt pick any vehicle that travelled on the road then the entrant had better be sure to photograph a boat or plane.

I'm certain it is your own personal preference you are referring to but your statement underlines the absolute need for judges to work along certain guidlines and criteria so that EVERYONES photos gets a fair appraisal.

 

Right - bed calls

[Guest Jaybee]

I can sympathise with Jaybees view here (even though as the competition winner with a photo subsequently described as a snapshot fit for deletion, the icing has definately fallen off the cake) because I too felt there was better pictures than mine.

 

However, beyond the technical aspects of a photo, any assessment is indeed subjective, & I think we need to be careful that we don't try to over emphasize the technicalities which would place the podium finishes beyond a lot of the posters. This is an amateur competition amongst (hopefully) friends & IMO the judgment criteria should reflect a fair but reasonably relaxed assessment. If we become too critical, a lot of the enjoyment will be lost & sadly the opportunity to learn from the likes of Jaybee, Rabster, Steve etc may be lost with it.

 

What about having an open vote on all the pictures submitted to gain a winner.

Peter you know I am not having a dig at you in any shape or form and please don't let the discussion detract from your win - you won in the same way every other winner has won - through the vote of the members - once the decision was put in their hands you came out top - be proud.

[TubularBelle]

Have to come back to this before I crawl up to bed

Tubularbelle I find this comment of yours rather disturbing, not the premise you make it on but the general effect this type of thinking would have on a competition

 

""""""For example, I am not a flower lover, if a comp was entirely about flowers I would have no problems picking a winner but when they are competing against animals for ex in comps such as 'Wildlife and Nature' or 'Flora and Fauna', there would be no chance of a flower getting into the final three if I was the Judge""""

 

Am I to believe that if there was a 50/50 split of flower shots and insect/animal shots then you would select no flowers?

If the flowers shots were all perfectly taken, beautifully composed and lit and all of the insect/animal shots were simply average then still no flowers would be selected for the final three?

Thats rather worrying for anyone who enjoyed photographing flowers and entered one into the competition. Being judged on what you photographed and not how you photographed it AND being beaten before you have even had a chance to win is not how a competition should be judged.

If there was a transport competition and the judge decided he wouldnt pick any vehicle that travelled on the road then the entrant had better be sure to photograph a boat or plane.

I'm certain it is your own personal preference you are referring to but your statement underlines the absolute need for judges to work along certain guidlines and criteria so that EVERYONES photos gets a fair appraisal.

 

Right - bed calls

 

 

Can't quote from two posts so firstly, referring to the above post Jaybee I think Peter was alluding to Dens comment re his photo rather than anything you said.

 

And what I said above was referring to the fact that I personally would not choose a subject choice such as 'Wildlife and Nature' or 'Flora and Fauna' because if I was the Judge I would only want to judge one category or the other. If I was to judge flowers, I would only want to judge flowers, because I find them less interesting and less work to photograph, as a very general rule, so would possibly not choose a flower photo over a photo of a living moving creature. Your Transport example was completely different because they were all forms of transport, not transport and something else. It would be like choosing a subject like 'Transport and Shoes'. Anyone who entered a flower in MY Comp would not have to worry because if I chose 'Flowers' as a subject matter, I would only be judging flowers. I just meant that flowers and animals are two different to be judged in the same comp, that is just my personal opinion, thats all. I was really referring to 'still lifes' as opposed to 'things that move', and please don't tell me that flowers are living moving things, I know that. Obviously many many other people think 'Wildlife and Nature' and 'Flora and Fauna' go perfectly well together, but if it was me, the nature and flora probably wouldn't get a fighting chance. I was only trying to say the same thing that Den said in his post, I apologise if I did not articulate it correctly. I am certainly not saying that I have never been gobsmacked by an awesome photo of a flower, I voted for Dogfish' Holyhock in the patterns and textures Comp.

 

My whole point of my post re following certain guidelines and criteria is that it changes with every competition because the Judge changes and as there is only one Judge and they choose the subject matter, then their own personal guidelines and criteria is all that should matter. Because the Judge changes with every competition, that means the quidelines and criteria changes with every competition and therefore, imho, allieviates the problems that you speak of. If one photographer misses out in one comp because that judge wasn't a fan of his or her style, then they will get another opportunity in the next comp with a different Judge. This also alleviates the whole issue of favouritism, esp when you have a relatively small group of contributors like we do here.

 

Be careful not to get too sensitive here because as yet, not I or anyone has degraded your opinion.

[Newt]

A few thoughts here about what makes a really great photo that are slightly at odds with some of the earlier posts.

 

I think for the comps we are looking for photos that, for whatever reason, 'grab' the viewer.

 

Some shots have an immediate advantage if the subject/situation is rare such as a hawk diving and catching a fish. The opportunity is fleeting and even if the photo is not crystal clear and perfectly framed, it can certainly be a great photo. If such happenings were very commonplace, our criteria for judging would lean more toward not only getting the picture but getting a really high quality one.

 

The thing that has amazed me with the photos shown in this forum (and this also does apply to the comps) is the photographers 'eye' in seeing a thing and deciding it will make a good picture. There have been many cases of my seeing a picture and thinking to myself that while I would never have thought to try for a picture of whatever it certainly did make an excellent subject.

 

Certain birds and animals are more likely to make themselves highly visible and hold still to accommodate the photographer but other than my expecting a higher technical quality picture, I don't think they are less worthy as subjects.

 

A rock or a building will hold still and happily wait for perfect weather and perfect lighting. The photographer who can see the potential and then photograph it can get stunning shots if he/she had a good 'eye' for what to shoot. Otherwise, the shot is boring.

 

The photo that won the comp for Finepix was great because of the composition and since the subject was not hard for her to find and photograph, it had to be unusual and technically good. It was. It won.

 

I would like to see comments from the judge about why they chose the photos that made the finals but I would like it mostly because I'd love to improve my 'eye' and details on why a particular photo appealed to the judge would help toward that end. I may not agree with the choices but that is fine since if we all agreed, there would be no need for the judging phase of the comps.

[rabster]

By heck, I’m wishing I’d entered a photo of a cat amongst some pigeons.

 

1st up well done to Peter winning the comp . I hope that the gloss hasn't been taken off your win by the subsequent debate, but fear it probably has.

 

I have to say I was very surprised, stunned even, to discover Jaybees’ Kingfisher didn’t make the final three. I’d already made my mind up that’s where my vote was going & thought it would run out an easy winner, shows what I know. For my money it was exceptional, only slightly marred by being shot in poor light at high ISO, although that just makes the shot all the more difficult to get & IMHO this didn’t detract from it being one of the best photos I’ve seen entered in any of the Anglers net comps to date.

 

It would seem my view on this was shared by some

 

Newt wrote:

 

I personally liked the 'bird looking at a fish looking at a bird' shot as well as any wildlife photo I can remember.

&

 

Tuberlellebell wrote:

 

I think that was has happened this time is not so much that there was anything wrong with the ones that did get in, but moreso that there was at least one very obvious and unanimous worthy entry that didn't get in.

 

But not by others

 

Poledark wrote:

 

The Kingfishers I like (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif), but they can be very obliging when you manage to get in the right position,,..sorry Jay, but they are one of the few birds which will sit and pose for the camera

Den, do you really see Kingfishers in this pose, with a fish staring down it’s throat at its imminent fate, so frequently that you consider this shot nothing special, if so please can I come out fishing with you sometime?

 

I agree that choosing the 3 finalists is a totally subjective process, but, as suggested by one or two above, a few words detailing why the final three were selected could maybe prove helpful, as Newt says, “but I would like it mostly because I'd love to improve my 'eye' and details on why a particular photo appealed to the judge”.

Whilst this hasn’t been a requirement of the challenges hitherto, didn’t the judges of the first few challenges do this anyway & it seems to have subsequently fallen by the wayside? It’s a shame Finepix is away at the moment, I feel slightly awkward this is being discussed in her absence & I’m sure if she were here she would give us an insight into why she picked her 3 finalists.

It’s interesting that something has occurred to make Mr W stop entering the comps(& maybe others that we don't know about??) & it would be useful if you could outline, maybe tactfully, why that is?

 

Steve Randles wrote:

 

I think that a few words on each photo a judge picks is a definate step in the right direction as I too sometimes think the odd choice here and there does not fit the criteria as listed by the judge.

 

I agree that the clematis, good shot that it is, didn’t seem to fit the Wildlife & Nature criteria. Jaybee thinks likewise about the Goldfinch shot I entered, I can’t agree with that. I know it’s frowned upon in the world of wildlife photography to photo a bird at a feeder, but nonetheless, it’s still a wild bird & as such meets the criteria, might not be everybody’s cup of tea mind.

 

peter mccue wrote:

 

What about having an open vote on all the pictures submitted to gain a winner.

I don’t think this would work Peter, the last comp had 18 entries & 38 votes were cast. I think you could finish up with several photos all getting 2 or 3 votes & having something like a 5 way tie – I don’t think that would’ve happened in this comp though.

 

I agree with TB & Peter that this isn’t a dedicated photography website & we shouldn’t worry too much about photos being technically brilliant as this could exclude those with less experience or basic equipment - and - at the end of the day it’s just for fun (plus mousemat & coaster – allegedly ).

 

I think it's useful that Jaybee has brought the subject up which at least has made us stop & consider if there are ways to improve the competitions, judging & voting process in future. That's not saying it's not fine as it is & this comp has just seen widely contrasting & strong views on the shots entered?

 

Jaybee wrote:

 

This post will either be deleted, get me kicked off the forum or put me in front of a firing squad without a blindfold

 

If you are shot at dawn, any chance I can have your camera & lenses?

 

How about you share yesterdays squirrel pics with us Jaybee?

 

Regards

 

Cliff

[TubularBelle]

Peter Mcue wrote: What about having an open vote on all the pictures submitted to gain a winner.

 

Rabster wrote: I don’t think this would work Peter, the last comp had 18 entries & 38 votes were cast. I think you could finish up with several photos all getting 2 or 3 votes & having something like a 5 way tie – I don’t think that would’ve happened in this comp though.

 

I have to agree with that, but also if we took away the Judges right to pick the finalists, why do we have a Judge at all? They chose the subject, they should have a say in the chosen few. I think the way it works now with the members having the final say, is the fairest way all round. The Judge should have the right to choose the subject and the finalists in any way and for any reason they see fit. Remember, before we had the mousemats, and our winners haven't even seen those for a while it seems, THAT WAS the prize.

 

I'd be very upset if I had entered a photo as superb as Jaybees Kingfisher and it didn't get into the finals but I wouldn't change anything.

[poledark]

Rabs, I see Kingfishers almost every day (4 or 5 days a week) and they often settle on my rods or a branch and fish, so to me they are fairly "commonplace" They therefore do not have the "Oooh" factor that makes a winner

 

But having said that, I still haven't managed a single shot as good as Jays,so would only have given it "second place" to his "White on Pink"

 

Regarding any of your pics Jay, should we/the judge take into account the time and effort you put in to get your pics and "deduct marks" because you "have more time than most" ? All starts to get a bit involved does it not?

 

Den

Edited August 28, 2006 by poledark